Replacing the Jianghus and sub-chasers?

planeman

Senior Member
VIP Professional
What I've learned from the Ideal PLAN missile boat thread is that many posters feel that the PLAN needs corvette/light frigate type vessels that have greater endurance and air-defence capability than missile boats and existing PLAN corvettes. These vessels would also need to be truly blue-water capable.

And then there are the large fleet of Jianghu class frigates, which have out-dated SSMs, virtually no air-defence and poor ASW fits. IMO these are so ineffective as to be deathtraps in any modern naval conflict - equivilent to sending pre-dreadnought battleships into action in WWII. But whilst I'm sure many people would like to see them replaced one for one by Type-054s, I cannot see that ever happening.

So I guess the vessels, either several types or one class, would need to fullfill these roles:
* Surface strike/SSM launch platform for missiles targeted by larger vessels
* Flortilla leader for FACs in littorial combat(?)
* Offshore patrol
* Second-line ASW

What designs/features/charactristics and capabilities do you think offer the PLAN best value for money if YOU were the person making the purchasing descisions (politics aside).
??????


PS. Please draw your design ideas if you can :)
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Well in effect the Jiangweis and Jiankais (054/A) are or at least should be the Jianghu replacements. I'm not exactly sure how it is toughted in PLAN, but I would expect that when the 054A will enter service in larger quantives (rumousr speaks 2+ hulls already laid down so I hope that it will finally be the next new mass produced chinese major combatant) the Jianghu's number will decrease rapidly. Not by one-to-one, there really isen't big need for that, but that about 6-8 054A will replace all the existing Jianghus. Or that at least is how it should be done.

So by principle there is no need to replace the Jianghu's as such, but still between the coastal force and the larger warship there should be some vessel roughly the size of 1000 tons. It should be toughted more as replacement of the Hainan and it's subvariants, as they are not by any standarts fit for modern naval warfare.

Before I give my suggestion, few things to be clarified:
OPV and corvette/light frigate are two entirely different things. A corvette is a warship assigned to the navy and OPV is a patrol ship assigned to the martime security and survelance agencys what ever they might be in various countries. These ships may look like each others, but are not the same ships and it's not wise to have single ship operating in both duties. They may be build using the same common hull type (as will it be in my suggestion) but not that one particular ship is acting as both.

Alright. My suggestion.

We need ship with large enough hull to field all the neccecerical equipment and to have good endurance which however doesen't mean bluewater operations. The term Bluewater is used as to descripe some naval forces ability and capability to operate far from it's homewaters, practically anywhere around the wolrd. It's not simply just the endurance of the individual ships, but the over all capability of the entire fleet (support, lads, remember support, the key in all aspects of all warfare)
So where were we? Yeas, the size. As these ships should be able to perform effecient ASW operations (which means helicopter), have surface strike ability, decent airdefence, good sensors and act/pass EW suite and the already mentioned endurance we are facing one proplem: How can you fit all these in to 1000 ton hull? Well you cannot. At least not with balanced and ungrowed hull. And to add to this multipurpose hulls are not ideal solution if you have enough money so we need to at least three different class of ships.

But as the ships are approx. the same size, it's wise to use the common hull principle. So we will have a dedicated ASW frigate, a SRK (guard ship) and a OPV. The common hull will be based on the OPV build for Thailand. Some general data about the hulls: They will be ~95 meters long and 1000-1500 ton displacement. Propulsion will be 2 diesels.

The ASW frigate will be roughly analog to the Thailands ships. It has one 76mm gun in the bow and 8 YJ83 (and in this scenario we pretend that the CY-2 exists so some of the missile tubes will have it onboard) SSMs. The main difference is in the helicopter hanger. Unlike the Thailands ship, there will be a telescopic hangar and the rest of the space between the hangar and the funnel will be the main Air defence unit. Now as we paly along with the CY-2, we will also pretend that the land Based LD-2000 with the TY-90 along side the type 730 CIWS is adoptable for naval use also and thus we have somewhat Kahstan like powerfull anti-missile-missile and CIWS hyprid. The telescopic hangar accommodates one Z-9 size helicopter. A new small size LF VDS is fitted along new bow mounted LF sonar.

The SRK variant is basicly the same as the ASW version, only that the large funnel is not fitted (diesel powered ships are not tied to the funnels as steam and gas operated ships). As so total of 16 SSMs can be fitted. The SRK has only the bow mounted sonar.

The OPV variant is as the Thailands ships. The Helicopter hangar is fixed and there is no CIWS. Two single barreled 37mm AA or new dual 14.5 mm MGs will be fitted alongside the hangar. SSMs are intended but not carried. The sonar is hull mounted and not fit for active search and attack.

Now I will post a linedrawing of this ship as soon as I'm getting there (I'm actually drawing all the chinese major surface ships) so it may take a while...
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
I like the US LCS and British River Class OPV:

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Both ships use the storage-container mission modules, which makes it very flexibile. The River class OPV even has 25 ton crane to lift the mission modules.


Does anyone have specs on Royal Thai Navy's new OPV?
 

isthvan

Tailgunner
VIP Professional
Does anyone have specs on Royal Thai Navy's new OPV?

length: 95.5 metres
beamwidth:11.6 metres
displacment: 1,440 tonnes
crewed: 84 personnel

It is powered by twin Rushton 16RK270 diesel engines driving twin controllable-pitch propellers. The armaments package comprises one OTOBREDA 76/62 main gun and twin 40mm secondary guns and can carry helicopter in Z-9 class...

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planeman

Senior Member
VIP Professional
I have a few of my own ideas, but how about this for an offer: You guys tell me the charactristics you think it should have and I will try to illustrate your concepts - together we can come to a solution. I draw to approx scale )say 20cm accuracy on most aspects) so I if you give hull dimensions I can actually see what equipment fits depending on the suggested layouts.

So:
Length
Width
Description of weapons/ placement
Other charactristics
 

isthvan

Tailgunner
VIP Professional
OK here are my proposals:

I would replace Jianghu´s with something similar to Steregushchy class; 90-100m long corvette, 1500-2000t displacement, diesel propulsion…
Armed with 76mm gun, Kahstan( since its range is better then HQ-7 if new missiles are used), 4-8 YJ-83 SSM, two triple Yu-7 torpedo tubes, same sonar suit as Golly proposed, and Z-9/Ka-27( in telescopic hangar)…

OPV would be similar to Thai OPV but armed with 76mm gun on bow and two 14.5mm machineguns fitted alongside the hangar for EC-120/Z-11/Z-9 helicopter. Ship would also be fitted for 2-4 YJ-8 but wouldn’t carry them… For air defense OPV would be fitted with shipboard MANPAD similar to French Simbad…

For FAC flotilla leader/ costal ASW I would build 60-70m corvette, 500-700t displacement. It would be armed whit 76mm gun, 8 YJ-83, 4 Yu-7 torpedo’s and helicopter deck for smaller hello… Basically something similar to Visby class…
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
OK here are my proposals:

I would replace Jianghu´s with something similar to Steregushchy class; 90-100m long corvette, 1500-2000t displacement, diesel propulsion…
Armed with 76mm gun, Kahstan( since its range is better then HQ-7 if new missiles are used), 4-8 YJ-83 SSM, two triple Yu-7 torpedo tubes, same sonar suit as Golly proposed, and Z-9/Ka-27( in telescopic hangar)…

OPV would be similar to Thai OPV but armed with 76mm gun on bow and two 14.5mm machineguns fitted alongside the hangar for EC-120/Z-11/Z-9 helicopter. Ship would also be fitted for 2-4 YJ-8 but wouldn’t carry them… For air defense OPV would be fitted with shipboard MANPAD similar to French Simbad…

For FAC flotilla leader/ costal ASW I would build 60-70m corvette, 500-700t displacement. It would be armed whit 76mm gun, 8 YJ-83, 4 Yu-7 torpedo’s and helicopter deck for smaller hello… Basically something similar to Visby class…

hmm, I just want to comment on Kashtan, it's really not regarded very highly in PLAN. Especially the missile that comes with Kashtan. As for HQ-7, it's considered to be the best defensive missile vs sea skimmers. It's range might not be fantastic, but neither are the range of RAM and Barak.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
Here's a Kashtan ADGMS video:
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The Kahstan system has some advantages. It can integrate several combat modules and lay out streams of lead. Technologically wise, it's a bit old, but for its time, I think it was a good "heavy metal" weapon that can really dish it out.

As for the HQ-7, I wish they'd develop it into a VLS system like the Barak or Sea Wolf VLS. It'd make a good point-defense missile for light frigates and corvettes. It needs multiple interception capability. Unlike Falklands era aircraft, which only carried 1-2 anti-ship missiles, today most strike aircraft carries 4.

But the most pressing shortcoming... I think is in ASW weapons. PLAN really needs some ASROC type missiles, and if they cannot develop one, they should just import them from the Russians. ASW Helicopters are great, but they cannot be used in all weather conditions.

Going back to the original post, I think to replace Jianghu class ships, the 054 platform will do just fine. I think the 054 can be developed into GP (General Purpose) and ASW variant, as well as high-endurance coast guard ship. But for the future, they should definately look at the modular designs like that of LCS.
 
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planeman

Senior Member
VIP Professional
OK here are my proposals:

I would replace Jianghu´s with something similar to Steregushchy class; 90-100m long corvette, 1500-2000t displacement, diesel propulsion…
Armed with 76mm gun, Kahstan( since its range is better then HQ-7 if new missiles are used), 4-8 YJ-83 SSM, two triple Yu-7 torpedo tubes, same sonar suit as Golly proposed, and Z-9/Ka-27( in telescopic hangar)…

Ok, here's a start. I've presumed the 76mm to be the Russian AK-176 which is already in PLAN service. The only other 'modern' 76mm gun they could probably get their hands on is the Iranian version of the OTO-Melara 76mm.
isthavan1th5.gif

Tell me what to change/add and where to put things and we'll build her up.

The telescopic hanger adds weight and reduces utiliy, but saves space.

Just out of curiosity, what is the military need for the 76mm gun - wouldn't it make sense to ditch it and go for a better SAM system? Just a thought.
 

joshuatree

Captain
Question, for a certain length, let's just say 100m to make it easy, will a monohull have more space and stability or will a catamaran or trimaran? I know the question is not directly related to the thread but it does have an impact on the design. A catamaran/trimaran should have a lighter draft so that would be good for littoral areas but will it affect it's blue water ability?
 
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