Real life thread

[Hadoren]

Cool, whats your tech stack if I may know?

Front-end JavaScript.

 

[gadgetcool5]

Hello, I am looking to get a gift for someone who enjoys the 全民Party- Karaoke Singing App. Such as a microphone for voice enhancing? Does anyone have any ideas? This is really important.

 

[BlackWindMnt]

I'm writing this post to talk about my 2021 experience applying for jobs in Asia, especially Singapore and Hong Kong.

A bit about me - I'm a software engineer with several years of experience, albeit not at a top firm.

Here's how my job search went. It was not easy, but also not insurmountable.


Process

I applied for jobs the same way that I apply for jobs normally. I would look for positions on major job recruiting sites and then apply for jobs.

Of course, in any job search cold applications have very little success (especially when coming from across the world). As with my normal job searches, I therefore looked for recruiters or CTO's/company founders (medium and small companies only) on LinkedIn.

Sometimes I would message the recruiter or VIP on LinkedIn. Othertimes I would guess their e-mail through tools such as Rapportive or Clearbit. I would then e-mail a short introduction to myself (with pictures of my work), whilst mentioning the role I was applying for.

When companies responded, the interview process proceeded fairly similarly to the normal process. One thing I noticed was that Asian countries wanted a lot of coding challenges/projects. This made sense, as this is a better way of learning the skills of an unknown person across the ocean.

Work Sponsorship

Work sponsorship was difficult and definitely the biggest hurdle in the process. This was especially excruciatingly difficult with respect to Singapore and a big reason why I ended up in Hong Kong. Another reason is, of course, because I want to live in China.

I understood the difficulties involving COVID and work sponsorship. Nevertheless, it's pretty clear that COVID is here to stay. It may be years before international borders are fully open again. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and pursue your dream.

I grew to hate the question about whether or not I required work sponsorship. My answer usually resulted in an instant rejection. I lost count of the times a company would say, "We're currently hiring locals only." There were definitely days when I despaired.

As time went on, I noticed that companies grew more willing to entertain work sponsorship. This was probably because of the decline in American COVID cases. I started applying in February, just off the tail of the massive winter wave. By April, there was much more engagement.

Salary

Generally the salary (for an experienced software engineer) was around $55,000 to $80,000. This was more than I initially expected, although obviously a big cut from the six figures I'm currently making.

My impression of Singapore and Hong Kong is that a typical experienced white-collar job pays $45,000 to $65,000. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

English/Diversity

All the interviews and communication were in English. A lot of the companies were very international. I of course had East Asian interviewers, but I also had a number of Caucasian and South Asian interviewers.

My new company's team in fact has substantial Indian and European representation. In terms of diversity, it's actually not that different from an American company.



Notes About Specific Places

Singapore

I initially wanted to work in Singapore and sent 75% of my applications to Singapore.

I knew beforehand about anti-immigrant sentiment in Singapore and tightening restrictions during COVID. Nevertheless, the depth of work sponsorship rejection was dispiriting.

On

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

, the Singapore government even planted a nice message which said "[CANDIDATES WHO REQUIRE WORK PASSES NEED NOT APPLY]." Thanks Singapore (not that it stopped me from applying).

An enormous number of job advertisements also led to the famous Singaporean government site

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

, which is for Singaporeans only. The trick with this is to find the company's website itself and then apply for jobs on the website (make sure to find recruiters/CTO's/founders on LinkedIn and message them at the same time).

Ultimately, I did receive one oral job offer from Singapore. They asked for me to update my job profile on their website, which I did (and informed them). They never got back to me after that.

Hong Kong

At first, I wasn't that interested in Hong Kong and just sent applications there to test the waters.

While I didn't exactly get an enthusiastic response, there was more interest than in Singapore. As time went on, Hong Kong companies seemed more willing to proceed with the process. Eventually 50% of my applications were sent to Hong Kong.

Finally, I got two job offers from Hong Kong (one oral).

From my experience, I do believe that the Hong Kong atmosphere is more open than that of most other places today. Hong Kong appears to be accepting of skilled foreigners, as there's this narrative of emigration they want to counter. So the government seems more willing to give foreigners a work visa.

Mainland China

Although it was not my main focus, I sent a few applications to mainland China, including with a Chinese translation of my resume.

I never got a response. There was one recruiter who messaged me. When I informed her about my need for work sponsorship, she said that they weren't looking for non-citizens.

ASEAN

I also sent a few applications to ASEAN (usually when the company offered multiple positions in different countries). These included Vietnam, the Philippines, Indonesia, and Malaysia.

I never got a response. I did notice from Glassdoor that salaries were generally $20,000 to $35,000 a year. That honestly is too low for me.



Data

Here's some data on all the companies that I applied to.

Total Applications	149
Willing to Interview Me	12
Oral Job Offer	3
Written Job Offer	1

	Applications	Willing to Interview Me
Messaged/E-mailed Recruiter/CTO/Founder	80	8 (10%)
Cold Application	68	3 (4.4%)
Recruiter Messaged Me	2	1

Tidbits of Advice

Avoid Cold Applications

Find recruiters or CTO's/founders/VIP's and message or e-mail them.

Apply While You Still Have a Job

Companies are much more interested in currently employed applicants.

Don't Send Applications Every Day

Pick two days per week to apply.

Q: Why are you leaving your current job?

Make sure to say that you love your job before talking about why you're leaving.

Q: Why Singapore/Hong Kong?

For me this question was very tough and it took a lot of thinking and tries with interviewers to get it right.

Spend time to prepare an answer for this question that avoids negativity or a sense of desperation.



How Things Are Going in Hong Kong

Since I've moved to Hong Kong, things have gone well.

It is great not having to worry about COVID. I go to many restaurants and tourist spots and never have to worry about catching it and dying. It's great.

I've met several people and am working on making friends. Some has panned out; some has not. I've had dinner with a co-worker and visited some tourist spots with another. The company is very nice, although that is obviously company-specific rather than country-based.

I also have found a girlfriend, and we've done the deed. I'd characterize myself as below-average in handsomeness and social skills, which is why I didn't have a girlfriend in the United States.

The government wants to attract immigrants to counter the emigration narrative, meaning that work visas are easy to obtain. Carrie Lam has specifically spoken about her desire to continue attracting international talent. So they're not kicking out foreigners.

There are many English-speaking jobs here that don't require Cantonese. Obviously the majority of Hong Kongers speak Cantonese, and my co-workers do so when talking with each other. However, I've met many foreigners in white-collar jobs who cannot speak Cantonese. So contrary to the myth, it's 100% possible to be obtain a middle-class white-collar position speaking only English.

So I am very much loving Hong Kong, and I highly encourage others to try.



Conclusion

Returning to Asia is tough but doable. You can find a job that pays American wages that isn't teaching English. If you are a white-collar American with experience, you can do it.

Wow nice before the pandemic i was also thinking about moving back, pretty much came to the same conclusion.
If you're from the more richer parts of the west the only viable real options are China and Singapore. Then China mostly tier 1 and hong kong region.

Maybe I will try after the pandemic has cooled down for a bit in 2023~2025. I feel like Europe is kind of hopeless when it comes to big tech software innovation. Not that i'm planning on working for big tech but I like a Area where those big tech companies give presentations and do events.. I'm from western Europe $55~88k is the norm here so i'm not going back from a six figure wage.

Came to the same conclusion that ASEAN salary was just too low if I wanted to also fly back yearly to Europe to meet up with family and friends.

Any recommendations on what for frontend framework to focus on for hong kong, I heard React and Vue are really popular in Asia.
At the moment i'm doing fullstack or how the managers like to call it these days T-shape/devops

Thanks for sharing this.

 

[Hadoren]

Wow nice before the pandemic i was also thinking about moving back, pretty much came to the same conclusion.
If you're from the more richer parts of the west the only viable real options are China and Singapore. Then China mostly tier 1 and hong kong region.

Maybe I will try after the pandemic has cooled down for a bit in 2023~2025. I feel like Europe is kind of hopeless when it comes to big tech software innovation. Not that i'm planning on working for big tech but I like a Area where those big tech companies give presentations and do events.. I'm from western Europe $55~88k is the norm here so i'm not going back from a six figure wage.

Came to the same conclusion that ASEAN salary was just too low if I wanted to also fly back yearly to Europe to meet up with family and friends.

Any recommendations on what for frontend framework to focus on for hong kong, I heard React and Vue are really popular in Asia.
At the moment i'm doing fullstack or how the managers like to call it these days T-shape/devops

Thanks for sharing this.

I would say React and Vue are great to focus on. From my perspective in Hong Kong, I would also recommend trying now.

Living in Hong Kong, right now there's a great shortage of engineers; for instance, my company is short dozens of engineers - and there are developers leaving monthly. One person got a job at my company and resigned in the same month for a better offer.

Also, from what I've seen, English is widely used for development.

So contrary to popular belief, Hong Kong is very hot for software engineering. It may not have top-tier tech companies, but there's still great demand.

Finally, it's more easy than ever to get a Hong Kong work visa. They want to combat the perception that people are leaving. So right now the Hong Kong government welcomes foreign talent more than any other time in the 21st century. (Of course you will have to go through the quarantine after you land.)

 

[caudaceus]

I would say React and Vue are great to focus on. From my perspective in Hong Kong, I would also recommend trying now.

Living in Hong Kong, right now there's a great shortage of engineers; for instance, my company is short dozens of engineers - and there are developers leaving monthly. One person got a job at my company and resigned in the same month for a better offer.

Also, from what I've seen, English is widely used for development.

So contrary to popular belief, Hong Kong is very hot for software engineering. It may not have top-tier tech companies, but there's still great demand.

Finally, it's more easy than ever to get a Hong Kong work visa. They want to combat the perception that people are leaving. So right now the Hong Kong government welcomes foreign talent more than any other time in the 21st century. (Of course you will have to go through the quarantine after you land.)

Would be nice if salary for software engineer in HK to be higher.

 

[tonyget]

Wow nice before the pandemic i was also thinking about moving back, pretty much came to the same conclusion.
If you're from the more richer parts of the west the only viable real options are China and Singapore. Then China mostly tier 1 and hong kong region.

Maybe I will try after the pandemic has cooled down for a bit in 2023~2025. I feel like Europe is kind of hopeless when it comes to big tech software innovation. Not that i'm planning on working for big tech but I like a Area where those big tech companies give presentations and do events.. I'm from western Europe $55~88k is the norm here so i'm not going back from a six figure wage.

Came to the same conclusion that ASEAN salary was just too low if I wanted to also fly back yearly to Europe to meet up with family and friends.

Any recommendations on what for frontend framework to focus on for hong kong, I heard React and Vue are really popular in Asia.
At the moment i'm doing fullstack or how the managers like to call it these days T-shape/devops

Thanks for sharing this.

Singapore IT industry is full of Indians. And just like what happened in silicon valley，Once an Indian climb to higher position in the company he will replace as much workers as he can with Indians，and then the company starts to corrupt with shitty products.

 

[tonyget]

What about Japan or Korea ？

I'm writing this post to talk about my 2021 experience applying for jobs in Asia, especially Singapore and Hong Kong.

Notes About Specific Places

Conclusion

Returning to Asia is tough but doable. You can find a job that pays American wages that isn't teaching English. If you are a white-collar American with experience, you can do it.

 

[tonyget]

China is hunting for talents with semiconductor expertise and willing to pay top dollars. As for software engineers，I don't think there is a shortage

 

[SinoaTerrenum]

I'm writing this post to talk about my 2021 experience applying for jobs in Asia, especially Singapore and Hong Kong.

A bit about me - I'm a software engineer with several years of experience, albeit not at a top firm.

Here's how my job search went. It was not easy, but also not insurmountable.


Process

I applied for jobs the same way that I apply for jobs normally. I would look for positions on major job recruiting sites and then apply for jobs.

Of course, in any job search cold applications have very little success (especially when coming from across the world). As with my normal job searches, I therefore looked for recruiters or CTO's/company founders (medium and small companies only) on LinkedIn.

Sometimes I would message the recruiter or VIP on LinkedIn. Othertimes I would guess their e-mail through tools such as Rapportive or Clearbit. I would then e-mail a short introduction to myself (with pictures of my work), whilst mentioning the role I was applying for.

When companies responded, the interview process proceeded fairly similarly to the normal process. One thing I noticed was that Asian countries wanted a lot of coding challenges/projects. This made sense, as this is a better way of learning the skills of an unknown person across the ocean.

Work Sponsorship

Work sponsorship was difficult and definitely the biggest hurdle in the process. This was especially excruciatingly difficult with respect to Singapore and a big reason why I ended up in Hong Kong. Another reason is, of course, because I want to live in China.

I understood the difficulties involving COVID and work sponsorship. Nevertheless, it's pretty clear that COVID is here to stay. It may be years before international borders are fully open again. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and pursue your dream.

I grew to hate the question about whether or not I required work sponsorship. My answer usually resulted in an instant rejection. I lost count of the times a company would say, "We're currently hiring locals only." There were definitely days when I despaired.

As time went on, I noticed that companies grew more willing to entertain work sponsorship. This was probably because of the decline in American COVID cases. I started applying in February, just off the tail of the massive winter wave. By April, there was much more engagement.

Salary

Generally the salary (for an experienced software engineer) was around $55,000 to $80,000. This was more than I initially expected, although obviously a big cut from the six figures I'm currently making.

My impression of Singapore and Hong Kong is that a typical experienced white-collar job pays $45,000 to $65,000. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

English/Diversity

All the interviews and communication were in English. A lot of the companies were very international. I of course had East Asian interviewers, but I also had a number of Caucasian and South Asian interviewers.

My new company's team in fact has substantial Indian and European representation. In terms of diversity, it's actually not that different from an American company.



Notes About Specific Places

Singapore

I initially wanted to work in Singapore and sent 75% of my applications to Singapore.

I knew beforehand about anti-immigrant sentiment in Singapore and tightening restrictions during COVID. Nevertheless, the depth of work sponsorship rejection was dispiriting.

On

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

, the Singapore government even planted a nice message which said "[CANDIDATES WHO REQUIRE WORK PASSES NEED NOT APPLY]." Thanks Singapore (not that it stopped me from applying).

An enormous number of job advertisements also led to the famous Singaporean government site

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

, which is for Singaporeans only. The trick with this is to find the company's website itself and then apply for jobs on the website (make sure to find recruiters/CTO's/founders on LinkedIn and message them at the same time).

Ultimately, I did receive one oral job offer from Singapore. They asked for me to update my job profile on their website, which I did (and informed them). They never got back to me after that.

Hong Kong

At first, I wasn't that interested in Hong Kong and just sent applications there to test the waters.

While I didn't exactly get an enthusiastic response, there was more interest than in Singapore. As time went on, Hong Kong companies seemed more willing to proceed with the process. Eventually 50% of my applications were sent to Hong Kong.

Finally, I got two job offers from Hong Kong (one oral).

From my experience, I do believe that the Hong Kong atmosphere is more open than that of most other places today. Hong Kong appears to be accepting of skilled foreigners, as there's this narrative of emigration they want to counter. So the government seems more willing to give foreigners a work visa.

Mainland China

Although it was not my main focus, I sent a few applications to mainland China, including with a Chinese translation of my resume.

I never got a response. There was one recruiter who messaged me. When I informed her about my need for work sponsorship, she said that they weren't looking for non-citizens.

ASEAN

I also sent a few applications to ASEAN (usually when the company offered multiple positions in different countries). These included Vietnam, the Philippines, Indonesia, and Malaysia.

I never got a response. I did notice from Glassdoor that salaries were generally $20,000 to $35,000 a year. That honestly is too low for me.



Data

Here's some data on all the companies that I applied to.

Total Applications	149
Willing to Interview Me	12
Oral Job Offer	3
Written Job Offer	1

	Applications	Willing to Interview Me
Messaged/E-mailed Recruiter/CTO/Founder	80	8 (10%)
Cold Application	68	3 (4.4%)
Recruiter Messaged Me	2	1

Tidbits of Advice

Avoid Cold Applications

Find recruiters or CTO's/founders/VIP's and message or e-mail them.

Apply While You Still Have a Job

Companies are much more interested in currently employed applicants.

Don't Send Applications Every Day

Pick two days per week to apply.

Q: Why are you leaving your current job?

Make sure to say that you love your job before talking about why you're leaving.

Q: Why Singapore/Hong Kong?

For me this question was very tough and it took a lot of thinking and tries with interviewers to get it right.

Spend time to prepare an answer for this question that avoids negativity or a sense of desperation.



How Things Are Going in Hong Kong

Since I've moved to Hong Kong, things have gone well.

It is great not having to worry about COVID. I go to many restaurants and tourist spots and never have to worry about catching it and dying. It's great.

I've met several people and am working on making friends. Some has panned out; some has not. I've had dinner with a co-worker and visited some tourist spots with another. The company is very nice, although that is obviously company-specific rather than country-based.

I also have found a girlfriend, and we've done the deed. I'd characterize myself as below-average in handsomeness and social skills, which is why I didn't have a girlfriend in the United States.

The government wants to attract immigrants to counter the emigration narrative, meaning that work visas are easy to obtain. Carrie Lam has specifically spoken about her desire to continue attracting international talent. So they're not kicking out foreigners.

There are many English-speaking jobs here that don't require Cantonese. Obviously the majority of Hong Kongers speak Cantonese, and my co-workers do so when talking with each other. However, I've met many foreigners in white-collar jobs who cannot speak Cantonese. So contrary to the myth, it's 100% possible to be obtain a middle-class white-collar position speaking only English.

So I am very much loving Hong Kong, and I highly encourage others to try.



Conclusion

Returning to Asia is tough but doable. You can find a job that pays American wages that isn't teaching English. If you are a white-collar American with experience, you can do it.

Thanks for sharing your experience Hadoren, what were your biggest drivers in wanting to move back to China? Good number of friends in the financial/legal fields are mulling a potential move to Asia while being tied down by golden handcuffs (increased compensation, fancier titles, significant others, etc.). Also heard/felt entire spectrum of feedback on rise in anti-Asian hate (from "no different" to "noticeably worse"), so curious if that was 1 of the factors.

 

[Hadoren]

Thanks for sharing your experience Hadoren, what were your biggest drivers in wanting to move back to China? Good number of friends in the financial/legal fields are mulling a potential move to Asia while being tied down by golden handcuffs (increased compensation, fancier titles, significant others, etc.). Also heard/felt entire spectrum of feedback on rise in anti-Asian hate (from "no different" to "noticeably worse"), so curious if that was 1 of the factors.

I had previously worked in China, really enjoyed it, and always dreamed of being able to return. Anti-Asian hate wasn't really a factor, as I'd always wanted to return to the APAC region.

With respect to my biggest driver, I'd say that my social life was very important. It's far easier to make friends and get to know people, at least in my opinion, in the APAC region.

In the imperial core there is that great racial caste system. Imperial Americans will not discriminate to your face, although they will vote for Trump and racist laws and quotas. They will serve you in restaurants and check you in at the hotel - and they will be coldly professional and competent in that. But they won't deign to form a friendship with you, let alone let you hold managing roles in their organisations. They will simply do what's necessary to interact with you, and not go a single step further.

The United States is the most anti-Asian country in the entire world. And I don't want to live in that septic tank of racism.

With respect to golden handcuffs, it's definitely true that salaries are lower. My salary is around 40% lower. For me, nevertheless, it's worth it. I'd already saved a very large amount of money before. Now I'm living comfortably in Hong Kong, have a decent social life, and still saving tens of thousands of dollars.

My goal was to work in a respectable, decent-paying, white-collar job in APAC - in a language I know. I've been able to do that.