Rafale, an ideal aircraft for PLA carrier aircraft

Chengdu J-10

Chengdu J-10

Junior Member
tphuang said:
I've been trying to delete those.

Actually, I'm one of those who really dislikes Russian stuff. But anyhow, it is kind of interesting that J-10, WS-10, WZ-10 all have 10 as their designation. I guess it's a lucky designation. Mind you, SD-10 is an export missile, plaaf will never use it. As for WS-10, you can read up on some articles on it. But some of its root seems to come from past experiences with turbofan engines like WS-6. From most of the Chinese sources, WS-10's core seemed to have been developed by studying the core of CFM-56. In fact, a lot of WS-10's specs are aimed at replicating that of F110-GE-129. And the initial long duration tests for WS-10A's certification were definitely more stringent than that of AL-31.

To adeptitus,
I remember reading an article posted on afm that an empty Rafale is around 66 million and a fully loaded one is 140 million! The cost of this thing is really going up. As for M2K, considering that China thinks J-10 is a M2K with better maneuverability and thrust, I don't think they would be interested in it.
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About those (.....) when typing I accidentally hit enter. So thats what happens, to those one liner .... post. How do you delete post that you dont want, or accidentally put in? Replying to Steelbird the engine is WS-10A not the plain WS-10 I'm just lazy in typing in the full name. Like the AL-31 it should be AL-31FN engines equipped on the J-10
 
tphuang

tphuang

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SteelBird said:
TP: Would you please give me some links to the WS-10 or the WS family, I'd like to know more about its situation.

If PLAAF is not going to use SD-10, I can't see PLAAF having any MRAAM which is more capable than it. Or do want to say that SD-10 is a down-grade version of PL-12?
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hmm, links on WS-10 is pretty hard to find. I would start by looking through the WS-10 thread. That has as much aviation engine as you would need to know and available.

As for SD-10, yes, it is the export version of PL-12. PL-12 should have better seeker, weighs more, travels longer and can do better turns.
 
C

challenge

Banned Idiot
Chengdu J-10 said:
The J-10 is a capable aircraft who's capability is either on par or surpasses the F-18. The design was not based on an Russia aircraft but more so resembles the cancelled Lavi project from Israel-US, this design has Western aspects and is a major step away from the Russia-Soviet Union designs that China's inventory is largely populated with. This is a major step foward in achieving Western standards of technology, and towards modernisation and advancement. The only thing major in the J-10 that is Russian is the AL-31 engine but this is slated to be replaced in future production by the domestic WS-10 which has and increased thrust from 122kN to 129kN. The J-XX might be a good aircraft? It will be a good aircraft.
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J-10 is not combat proven aircraft,her overall capability is still of a mystery.
until China release more information,or even allow outsider to fly the aircraft.everything we know is simple wild guess.
 
crobato

crobato

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planeman said:
I agree. Rafale would beat the notional J-10B hands down and offer advantages over the Su-33 also, particularly in terms of deckspace. One thing I can't imagine France exporting is the Specture EW system which is arguably the Rafale's magic bullet. Another thing to consider is that French Rafales are slated to get Meteor BVR missile which will make the PL-12 of (notional) PLANAF Rafales' look somewhat short ranged.
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If the Rafale was ever sold to the PLAN, it would be downgraded but cheaper. Perhaps won't be using the Specture EW suite, or Meteor BVR, but the plane instead would be fitted with the PLA's own EW and using the PL-12. The specific Rafales would end up being a sort of Sino-Franco partnership with the planes being assembled in China, and fitted with some Chinese systems, and French systems modified in partnership with the Chinese.

Think of the Z-9 as the cooperative industry model. Its not inconcievable the French are really hungry for the Chinese business but lacking the will to defy that embargo.
 
J

joey

Just Hatched
Registered Member
The J-10 is a capable aircraft who's capability is either on par or surpasses the F-18
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F18's Which versions your talking about?
If its the one with APG 79 AESA, AIM9X and AIM 120D better luck ;)
 
U

unknauthr

Junior Member
Much Could be Learned . . .

SteelBird said:
But if one day in the near future, the embargo is lift, would China buy the Rafale?
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Given the opportunity, and provided that they could come up with the funding, I would expect China would jump at the chance to import a small batch of Rafale fighters. I say this for two reasons:
  • Symbolically, it would be a way to "shove it to the Americans", by clearly bringing an end to the current Western arms embargo
  • China could learn a great deal from close contact with European (non-Russian) avionics and engine technology.

Obviously, there are two reasons why this would never happen: the Europeans are unlikely to lift the arms embargo against China; and the cost of the deal could prove prohibitive (Rafale is not cheap).
 
crobato

crobato

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China was said to have prepared a 100 billion war chest as a carrot for the Europeans to lift the embargo---as if the embargo really mattered, since the British sent engines for JH-7s, search radar for MPAs, the Germans have their diesel engine designs in the PLA tanks and subs.

Rafale might be too expensive, but for the CCCP leadership, which don't think in the practical military terms, political victory is all that matters, and politics will outweigh logic and common sense anytime. They will probably buy a few planes to be symbolic, then take them apart of the technology. But that may be too obvious even for the French, who will probably at least want some partnership in a joint venture, and further preference for them in other contracts like jetliners and nuclear reactors.
 
Chengdu J-10

Chengdu J-10

Junior Member
challenge said:
J-10 is not combat proven aircraft,her overall capability is still of a mystery.
until China release more information,or even allow outsider to fly the aircraft.everything we know is simple wild guess.
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I doubt that China would let any outsiders fly their most valued aircraft anytime soon. Maybe the Pakistans, just a maybe but any one else I would have to say no. The Chinese sort of treat their J-10 like the US treat their F-22. (I know it is not comparable but its an expression, no need to get into detail about capabilities) About the possible future export of the Rafale I would suspect that China would purchase a small batch of the Rafale, take them apart for analysing and then somehow intergrate the technology into either their current aircraft as a modernisation/upgrade package or intergration or influence on future aircraft designs/projects.
 
B

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
I think the PLAAF/N could get access to French fighter technology anyway by getting a close look at
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(
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)without investing in Rafale.
In 1994 Pakistan took out of storage thirty of forty-eight Mirage IIIs that it had originally acquired from Australia; the Mirages were grouped into a fighter squadron. Additionally, Pakistan's Mirage 5s were scheduled to be upgraded with French assistance.
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In the meantime, the PAF has strengthened its MIRAGE fleet through the purchase of ex-Australian MIRAGE IIIs, which have been retrofitted with a state-of-the-art avionics package... Deliveries of 40 ex-French refurbished MIRAGE III E/5Fs started in early 1998 and are almost complete.
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Taiwan operates the
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, (
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), and even if the PRC ever gets Rafale, consider how goofy it may look if a war breaks out: the French have supplied both sides of the conflict!
The Rafale is more advanced and thus more expensive, and even if the sale did go ahead there is no guarantee of continued French post-sale support in the future. Can the Taiwanese get it now for their MIRAGE IIIs? Maybe, but in the case of PLA it probably won't happen!
 
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Chengdu J-10

Chengdu J-10

Junior Member
Though the French did sell Mirage to Taiwan I think that they are actually more friends with China. (If you know this never mind) I think that instead of Rafale purchase which is very obvious and the US strongly would disagree I reckon that a secret technology transfer along with some engineers should go to China and apply the Rafale technology into the J-10/J-11 or even secretly help them in cooperation in designing a new aircraft. This may sound wild but it would be more successful in conceiling it than purchasing Rafale which would bring alot of media attention and which the US could see plainly how a Rafale ended up on a Chinese carrier. But if Rafale technology was inserted into the PLAAF planes it wouldn't be as obvious and the US cannot specifically finger point.
 
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