QTS-11 OICW. 5.8 mm Heavy and 20 mm Air Burst.

TerraN_EmpirE · Apr 10, 2016

plawolf said:
It is rumoured that the ZH05 started off with a 3 round magazine fed semi-auto grenade launcher, but that after field trials, the PLA requested the design change to bolt action breach fed to reduce weight and improve the performance of the grenade launcher.

The end product we see so far however is not just a bolt action but a single shot bolt action. The South Korean K11 is also a bolt action air burst with a 5.56mm host carbine however the K11 is a bolt action repeater. that means it has a 5 round box magazine.

Looking at the gun, you can clearly see the gap where the magazine would have slotted into, had they carried on with the magazine.

I am not sure I do, what I see is a space for the bolt to be cycled open. for loading.

I am honestly torn on this, as I think a 3 round magazine would have been very useful in some situations, whereas the weight savings and flexibility in round selection (hell, maybe even the option of having 3 specialist round types to choose from rather than being stuck with a HEDP round type) are also major pluses in other situations.

round selection is up in the air, but weight I think is the main issue. it was the issue that killed the XM29 and created the XM25, It was the issue that lead the Koreans to drop the gas system from the K11 in favor of a bolt action. I mean a Stock carbine like the QBZ 03 or QBZ95 is about 7.7 pounds on it's own now you start adding in a secondary weapon function of atleast another 11 pounds ( based on the weight of the PAWS 20 a 20x42mm Semi auto grenade launcher which is 13 pounds) you can see the weight issue.

I suppose, for the primary mission of the smart grenade launcher - to take out enemies in hard cover with perfectly timed air bursting grenades,

yes. Absolutly it is a weapon designed to allow precision engagement ( preferably from behind cover ) of enemy troops who are in defile and a threat.

a well trained soldier could almost engage multiple targets as fast with the bolt action as he could with a semi-auto.

Not in this case. I dispute that because the end product has not only given up the gas system but also the magazine.
It's a bolt action yes, so it's not as long a loading as a muzzle loader but it's still a single shot.

That is because the bulk of the kill cycle in such instances revolves around programming of the fuse. On the ZH05, that is done with the left hand, while reloading the launcher is done with the right.

This would fit with the K11 but not the ZH05. Each shot must not just be aimed and the bolt cycled but also loaded. where as the Korean K11 by having the magazine simply requires cycling the bolt to strip a round from the box and chamber the round. the ZH05 manual of operation would require opening the bolt pulling a fresh round from the soldiers gear, seating the round closing the bolt aiming the shot and engaging the target you have added in another set of motions that require the shooter to remove the weapon from his shoulder to pull a fresh round and load the weapon. This slows down the cycle of operations and means a much slower rate of fire because of the need to reload each shot from a soldier's gear.

If you trained so much and so hard that the entirely reloading process is done to muscle memory, you can devote the lion share of your attention on keeping the weapon aimed and programming the point of detonation with your left.

Again apt more for the K11 then the ZH05.

It will be a lot harder than using a semi-auto, but it should be possible to achieve similar fire rates and accuracy of air bursting.

Part of the reason for the want of semiauto or repeater action for a smart grenade launcher is that of the ability to rapid follow up. Just as we have discussed with sniper rifles their remains the possibility of first shot miss demanding correction and adjustment for follow up shots. the reload demanded by ZH 05 means that every shot is basically re-aimed, well K11 allows cycle to follow up and XM25 or PAWS 20 allow second trigger pull.

AndrewS · Apr 10, 2016

I don't see the ZH-05 being a single shot bolt action as being a huge impediment.

The Koreans only issue 2 K-11s per squad, so given that the Chinese would do something similar, the majority of infantryman would be using a normal assault rifle anyway.

Plus running out of ammo is a big problem for infantrymen, which I would expect would be an even bigger problem for the ZH-05 bombardier as he would be carrying grenades as well.

MwRYum · Apr 10, 2016

plawolf said:
It is rumoured that the ZH05 started off with a 3 round magazine fed semi-auto grenade launcher, but that after field trials, the PLA requested the design change to bolt action breach fed to reduce weight and improve the performance of the grenade launcher.

Looking at the gun, you can clearly see the gap where the magazine would have slotted into, had they carried on with the magazine.

I am honestly torn on this, as I think a 3 round magazine would have been very useful in some situations, whereas the weight savings and flexibility in round selection (hell, maybe even the option of having 3 specialist round types to choose from rather than being stuck with a HEDP round type) are also major pluses in other situations.

I suppose, for the primary mission of the smart grenade launcher - to take out enemies in hard cover with perfectly timed air bursting grenades, a well trained soldier could almost engage multiple targets as fast with the bolt action as he could with a semi-auto.

That is because the bulk of the kill cycle in such instances revolves around programming of the fuse. On the ZH05, that is done with the left hand, while reloading the launcher is done with the right.

If you trained so much and so hard that the entirely reloading process is done to muscle memory, you can devote the lion share of your attention on keeping the weapon aimed and programming the point of detonation with your left.

It will be a lot harder than using a semi-auto, but it should be possible to achieve similar fire rates and accuracy of air bursting.

If to go with magazine-fed semi auto design, then better do it with a independent platform, not trying to lump mesh it with a combat rifle - remember, even with the best training and conditioning you're still homo sapian, not a T-800 combat chassis, and certainly not SPARTAN II super soldier with custom power armor.

Now, to simply it to a bolt-action breach loader design, means they deemed the use of programmable fuse grenade is something of a special round - "magic bullet" if you will - that only use when needed, at most have one round loaded and ready is enough to fit the bill. "Proper" squad-based indirect fire support still be handled by the squad grenade launcher or other with "more economical" types of ammunition.

Now, if they can squeeze this down to this module size, should they follow suit to the US' XM25 programme, they can certainly make one that's semi-auto magazine-fed model.

plawolf · Apr 11, 2016

When they switched to single shot, they obviously redesigned the rest of the rifle for better ergonomics.

I suspect that weight was only one factor, another major one would have been the grenades themselves.

With a bolt action launcher, they could use a higher pressure round, achieving greater effective range and shallower ballistics curve to aid aiming. If they didn't go for longer range, they could use a smaller charge and increase the payload in the round, which, together with the simpler/smaller fuse from specialist rounds, probably explain the greater than typical effect for grenades of that size.

The removal of the semi auto loader and magazine not only reduced weight, but also space demands within the weapon.

I would not be surprised if they then made good use of that block of space behind the launcher breach, like adding some kind of recoil/shock absorption system in place there, which again helps allow a higher pressured round to be used.

As for needing to take the rifle from the shoulder to reload, well you or I, or anyone who just picked up the rifle will obviously need to do that, but a properly trained soldier shouldn't have to.

There are plenty of bolt action sniper rifles without a magazine, and their operators/owners learn and train to be able to load while keeping their eyes on the scope.

Hell, take the famous AK 'bump' mag change method. That takes several steps and is moderately complex, yet properly trained troopers can execute it in seconds.

Just off the top of my head, I can think of a very simple method for a breach loaded grenade launcher round that should take just as little time.

After the shot, you first pluck out a replacement round, hold with index finger and thumb, as you draw back the bolt with your middle finger, twist your wrist and load. Shouldn't take more than 3 seconds.

Do that a thousand times until you can execute the move flawlessly with muscle memory, then you can keep your focus on programming the next shot with your left hand.

However, I think the issue of follow up second shot is somewhat academic for a smart grenade launcher.

If you misjudged it and missed with your first shot for whatever reason, it's almost certain you will want to and need to reprogramme your range.

A rapidly fired follow up shot fused a few metres short of where you wanted the round to go will just waste a second grenade.

Not only do you need to reprogramme your range, you also need a few seconds for the smoke dust to clear to see if your first shot was effective to decide if you need a second follow up round.

Where the magazine would have been massively helpful is in CQC when used with the shotgun fletchet round.

As for XM25, well the PLA seems to be right on the pace in that regards with the LG5 already deployed.

TerraN_EmpirE · Apr 11, 2016

plawolf said:
When they switched to single shot, they obviously redesigned the rest of the rifle for better ergonomics.

I suspect that weight was only one factor, another major one would have been the grenades themselves.

With a bolt action launcher, they could use a higher pressure round, achieving greater effective range and shallower ballistics curve to aid aiming. If they didn't go for longer range, they could use a smaller charge and increase the payload in the round, which, together with the simpler/smaller fuse from specialist rounds, probably explain the greater than typical effect for grenades of that size.

The removal of the semi auto loader and magazine not only reduced weight, but also space demands within the weapon.

I would not be surprised if they then made good use of that block of space behind the launcher breach, like adding some kind of recoil/shock absorption system in place there, which again helps allow a higher pressured round to be used.

Agreeable. Makes a lot of sense. And a quick look back at the High res posted by B78 and yes it could have some form of buffer internally.

As for needing to take the rifle from the shoulder to reload, well you or I, or anyone who just picked up the rifle will obviously need to do that, but a properly trained soldier shouldn't have to.

There are plenty of bolt action sniper rifles without a magazine, and their operators/owners learn and train to be able to load while keeping their eyes on the scope.

Fired from the Prone or a rest. This is not a sniper weapon it's a combat weapon for maneuver. In the prone or a single shot you can lay a box of ammo near by in this case the ammo is likely to be on the belt or the hip. This would also toss your rapid change of ammo out the window. as now your shooter has to check his rounds.

In the End Historical fact. A breach loaded Bolt action single shot WILL ALWAYS be slower then a magazine fed bolt action which in turn will always be slower then a self loading weapon.

Hell, take the famous AK 'bump' mag change method. That takes several steps and is moderately complex, yet properly trained troopers can execute it in seconds.

for a Reloaded magazine.

Just off the top of my head, I can think of a very simple method for a breach loaded grenade launcher round that should take just as little time.

After the shot, you first pluck out a replacement round, hold with index finger and thumb, as you draw back the bolt with your middle finger, twist your wrist and load. Shouldn't take more than 3 seconds.

Do that a thousand times until you can execute the move flawlessly with muscle memory, then you can keep your focus on programming the next shot with your left hand.

Which in turn throws back to my earlier debunk of your statement that a trained shooter could attain as fast a rate of fire with a bolt action single shot as a semiauto.

However, I think the issue of follow up second shot is somewhat academic for a smart grenade launcher.

If you misjudged it and missed with your first shot for whatever reason, it's almost certain you will want to and need to reprogramme your range.

A rapidly fired follow up shot fused a few metres short of where you wanted the round to go will just waste a second grenade.

factor here is that your not resetting each shot. all you would be doing is making an adjustment. I E a little more range a little less a little to the Left a little to the right up a bit down a bit. fire for effect.

Not only do you need to reprogramme your range, you also need a few seconds for the smoke dust to clear to see if your first shot was effective to decide if you need a second follow up round.

easy answer to see if it hit the target is if the bad guy is still shooting. Remeber wolf this is not a need on a perfect day this is a combat stress situation.

Where the magazine would have been massively helpful is in CQC when used with the shotgun fletchet round.

or against multiple targets in need of rapid servicing. In Iraq the US Army and USMC entered the conflict with the M24 and M40 both based on bolt action rifles with internal 5 round magazines. rapidly they found in Urban that a box mag or even better a high capacity was better suited and began adopting M14 Semiautomatic rifles and SR25's as well as modifying there M24 and M40's with detachable box magazines.

As for XM25, well the PLA seems to be right on the pace in that regards with the LG5 already deployed.

I am not the one for this argument that said both the US Xm25 and South African PAWS 20 show a semi auto grenade launcher with a 5-6 round capacity can be impressive machines for a infantry squad ( Even if PAWS currently lacks Air-burst). the LG5 due to length and heft would be better at the longer range by a specialist.

MwRYum · Apr 11, 2016

TerraN_EmpirE said:
I am not the one for this argument that said both the US Xm25 and South African PAWS 20 show a semi auto grenade launcher with a 5-6 round capacity can be impressive machines for a infantry squad ( Even if PAWS currently lacks Air-burst). the LG5 due to length and heft would be better at the longer range by a specialist.

The LG5 is so bulky that it has to be setup before firing, like as part of the support squad, instead of part of the assault squad which require something as portable as the MGL...which is the reason why I keep questioning the logic of making that thing at all.

TerraN_EmpirE · Apr 11, 2016

I agree whole heartily MwRyum a specialist weapon.
I can see uses for it but they imply firing it from a vehicle or preset up snipers nest.
Hang it out the side of a helicopter or on the deck of a small cutter to nail the cabin of a small boat. the only way I can see it directly supporting a squad would be to turret mount it on a Sharp Claw 2 or a Crew Task Support Unmanned Mobile Platform basically a 1 ton MULE UGV meant to support the grunts on patrol.

Blitzo · Apr 11, 2016

plawolf said:
When they switched to single shot, they obviously redesigned the rest of the rifle for better ergonomics.

I suspect that weight was only one factor, another major one would have been the grenades themselves.

With a bolt action launcher, they could use a higher pressure round, achieving greater effective range and shallower ballistics curve to aid aiming. If they didn't go for longer range, they could use a smaller charge and increase the payload in the round, which, together with the simpler/smaller fuse from specialist rounds, probably explain the greater than typical effect for grenades of that size.

The removal of the semi auto loader and magazine not only reduced weight, but also space demands within the weapon.

I would not be surprised if they then made good use of that block of space behind the launcher breach, like adding some kind of recoil/shock absorption system in place there, which again helps allow a higher pressured round to be used.

As for needing to take the rifle from the shoulder to reload, well you or I, or anyone who just picked up the rifle will obviously need to do that, but a properly trained soldier shouldn't have to.

There are plenty of bolt action sniper rifles without a magazine, and their operators/owners learn and train to be able to load while keeping their eyes on the scope.

Hell, take the famous AK 'bump' mag change method. That takes several steps and is moderately complex, yet properly trained troopers can execute it in seconds.

Just off the top of my head, I can think of a very simple method for a breach loaded grenade launcher round that should take just as little time.

After the shot, you first pluck out a replacement round, hold with index finger and thumb, as you draw back the bolt with your middle finger, twist your wrist and load. Shouldn't take more than 3 seconds.

Do that a thousand times until you can execute the move flawlessly with muscle memory, then you can keep your focus on programming the next shot with your left hand.

However, I think the issue of follow up second shot is somewhat academic for a smart grenade launcher.

If you misjudged it and missed with your first shot for whatever reason, it's almost certain you will want to and need to reprogramme your range.

A rapidly fired follow up shot fused a few metres short of where you wanted the round to go will just waste a second grenade.

Not only do you need to reprogramme your range, you also need a few seconds for the smoke dust to clear to see if your first shot was effective to decide if you need a second follow up round.

Where the magazine would have been massively helpful is in CQC when used with the shotgun fletchet round.

As for XM25, well the PLA seems to be right on the pace in that regards with the LG5 already deployed.

You're not too far off the mark in regards to choosing a single shot grenade launcher for the grenades themselves.

But from some of the leaked information (actually from back in 2014), the choice of single shot bolt action is not due to muzzle velocity necessarily, but rather was part of the decision to use single type grenades. That is to say, OICWs like the Korean or US versions tended to use "multirole" grenades that were able to be detonated on impact and with timed fuzes, but in that case, the fuzes tend to take up quite a bit more space in the grenade itself and limits the amount of explosive. OTOH, the ZH-05 uses three types of single role grenades each of which has a single role single type fuze (impact detonation type, airburst type, and "shotgun" type), allowing each individual grenade to have more explosive.

Of course, if the ZH-05 had a magazine then one would inherently have to use multirole grenades with more complex multirole fuzes because it would be impractical to switch between grenades/magazine types simply for the sake of a single grenade type.

therefore, I think that by adopting a single shot bolt action type launcher, they not only manage to reduce the weight of the overall weapon substantially, but they also make it practical to use single type grenades rather than multirole grenades.
Each configuration (single shot bolt action with single type grenades vs semi auto bolt action with magazine and multirole grenades) has their advantages and disadvantages, but it seems evident they chose one best suited to their needs.

I did a write up/summary for the CDF blog a few years back when all this information first came to light:

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TerraN_EmpirE · Apr 11, 2016

Blitzo said:
There are three kinds of grenades for the grenade launcher: The conventional impact grenade, the airburst grenade, and, what is called as the 'secret weapon'; the 'shotgun'-grenade. Latter is described as a grenade which will explode into a barrage of shrapnels to the forward direction at a customized range as set by the user. One can think of a small AHEAD (Advanced Hit Efficiency And Destruction) round to imagine its underlying principle.
According to the users during field tests, this grenade is devastating in combat and has a high suppression value in close urban battle.
With these three grenade rounds available for this system, it gained its "three-in-one-launcher" nickname by the PLA.

So Type 1 is like those of the PAWS20 Point Detnination. Type 2 is Airburst like the XM29 and type 3 is a shaped fragmentation blast warhead and Presumably a type 4 Training round.

Currently the XM25 still plans on a family of rounds Airburst Less Lethal, Blunt Less Lethal , AP and Breaching however today It's still only Training rounds and HEAB.
K11 is known for Training rounds and Airburst but likely can in the future be expanded.
and the now iNKUNZI PAW 20 ( they changed the name) which fires HEI, SAPHE ( semi armor piercing, High explosive) Training rounds and Armor piercing Capped

Inst · Apr 11, 2016

I think the ZH-05's rate of fire disadvantage is overstated. Infantrymen are inherently limited in the number of grenade rounds they can carry, meaning that semi-automatic or fully-automatic grenade launchers will run out of ammo quickly. Moreover, many targets require the firing of only one or two grenades; situations can be imagined where having 6 grenades in the magazine could be useful, but these would be relatively uncommon. Finally, since the ZH-05's bolt-action mechanism results in a lighter and cheaper rifle, it could be possible to increase the number of ZH-05s issued to a fireteam and a squad, increasing its resistance against casualties by having more men both trained and habituated to the rifle, as well as partially compensating for its lower rate of fire by having more firing platforms.

QTS-11 OICW. 5.8 mm Heavy and 20 mm Air Burst.

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King

AndrewS

Brigadier

MwRYum

Major

plawolf

Lieutenant General

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King

MwRYum

Major

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King

Inst

Captain