Most likely to develop domestic manufacturing capabilities since the Z111 Factory is the company producing these firearms.
QBZ-191 service rifle family
- Thread starter Blitzo
- Start date
well...it because israel sell production license for cheap and our military heavily mod it to be even cheaper to product
as you can see here , our military remove the much more comfortable m4 stock and replace it with much cheaper skeleton stock
they also bring back AK safety selector
about collab with china ......no can't do ....since nine dash line our grovernment new famous "lead the hate outside" tactic was "trash talk china" . can't going back now ....it already too late
I feel like getting a FNC license than the Galil would've been better (my opinion). I think we've reached a point in firearms design that we can all kind of point to a good rifle having a split upper/lower receivers, and that dustcover optics mount is kinda... meh.
No matter how much they advertise the snug fit of the dust cover to the receiver, repeated disassembly for cleaning especially with corrosive 7.62 rounds is going to mean it'll get loose eventually.
No matter how much they advertise the snug fit of the dust cover to the receiver, repeated disassembly for cleaning especially with corrosive 7.62 rounds is going to mean it'll get loose eventually.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
The Ace has sometimes been associated with the Galil name but it’s not a Galil.
Next Galil and Ace are primarily export oriented weapons. They sold to India. Some to Ukraine and a few others.
Basically it’s a transition rifle. You go from Bone stock AKM to ACE. Now you have a rifle with a folding adjustable stock. Optics mounting and all the training you already have transitioned.
They fill a roll for Israel similar to the CQ does for China. The Carmel and Arat are also export weapons well the X95 is their main weapon.
Vietnam also has its own AR15 manufacturing. Frankly the QBZ191 doesn’t offer anything worth such a change. Really what they need is the enabler devices. The ACE and AR can both mount those.
MwRYum
Major
QBZ191 is essentially an AR platform in terms of mechanics but operate more akin to AK. Since most armies operate on AR or AK as is, and China has production lines for both platforms to meet export demands, there's hardly any incentive to push it overseas, unless:
1. there's a new military to be established that for some (very absurd) reason(s) only China can/will provide essential gears to equip it.
2. there's a significant war that proves the worth of QBZ191 through trial by fire, so much so some China-friendly states wants to induct 5.8mm munitions and QBZ191 platform.
But as it has been said many times, 5.8mm and QBZ191 doesn't offer anything beyond on-par with mainstream platforms, there's hardly any incentive for its overseas induction.
I'm not sure how you can simultaneously say it is an AR platform "in terms of mechanics" yet "operate" more akin to an AK. I assume in this case you refer to AR-15 and AKM/74 respectively.
The "mechanics" of an AR platform would imply at minimum gas impingement, and "operating" like an AK would imply at minimum a long stroke piston.
Obviously QBZ-191 as we all know is a short stroke piston, i.e. neither of the above two options.
If you want to talk about ergonomics and furniture, then yes one can say it has some features of the AR-15 line and AKM line, though a direct connection with preceding QBZ-03 is also present in some aspects like the manual of arms.
Overall of course none of this changes the picture that it makes no sense for china to try and sell the QBZ-191 (even if rechambered to more widely used calibres like 5.56mm or 5.45mm etc), simply because AR variants and AK variants are already so prolific and offering another bespoke short stroke piston assault rifle without commonality in parts doesn't make sense.
That argument would overall be much stronger if QBZ-191 wasn't seen as a mashup of AR "mechanics" and AK "operation".
Just call it what it is -- another short stroke piston assault rifle with some manual of arms features that the PLA like combined with some more modern furniture/receiver elements.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Blitzo is right.
The Long stroke gas piston system is dramatically different in operation and construction vs the type 191. Though if we are going there we should also state that the AR15 isn’t actually true Direct impingement it’s an internal piston system in that the piston is part of the Bolt carrier group. So rather than an “External gas piston system” where the piston cylinder is located directly above the gas port usually near the “buisness end” of the muzzle. The AR has the gas port feed the gas tube to the gas key that has gas rings serving as the piston. If you want to see a true direct impingement system on a rifle the MAS 40 series.
I would say the Type 19 family is closer to the AR short stroke piston rifles like the HK416, Caracal CAR 816, Sig 516 and even…. The Taiwanese T65 family T65/T85/T91 and T112. These usually combine an AR18 derived short stroke piston system either self adjustable or multi port adjustable in combination with the Receiver extension.
Though I wouldn’t be as hard on the Bespoke rifle arena. most common calibers are still the big three the 5.56x45mm NATO, 7.62x39mm and 7.62x51mm and we have seen a number of platforms emerge globally in this calibers especially in the NATO calibers.
Well The AR15 is king of 5.56 NATO. It’s a constitutional monarchy sharing power with AR18 derived rifles like the G36, MCX, Fn Scar L as well as systems based off the AK. Bullpup like the Aug and X95 as well as the aforementioned hybrid of AR15/18.
The AR10 family probably holds the crown of the 7.62x51mm battle rifles yet it took it from the Right arm of the free work the FN FAL which always had the HK G3 at its side. The Fn Scar H and a number of other multi caliber large envelope rifles have started taking places.
The Ak is undeniably the basis of the vast majority of 7.62x39mm rifles. Yet we live in the age of multi caliber. A number of countries have adopted systems like the Beretta Arx 180 and Sig MCX LT configured in that caliber.
Plus we have emerging calibers that may take a place as well .300 blk, 6.5 Creedmoor these are more specialized obviously. So it seems to me like it’s still possible for something like the Cs/Ls17 or a derivative of the QBZ191 to emerge it’s a question of the market that favors Chinese products sees the need.
no we don't and we can't , every ar-15 you see our troops use today are old south vietnam/us capture/left behind m16/car-15 , mod and refurbished
our weapon manufacturing still have many problem and issue , even our self-made AK/RPD still not yet equal as soviet AKM , norico type 56 in term of equality tbh......
one of main goal for gali ace license produce deal/israel help was to fix all the manufacturing tech issue above
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Okay, I am probably wrong on the AR. Maybe it was some never lived up to announcement from years ago I half remembered.
Anyway. I still want to try and separate the Galil and the ACE. Because they really are separate things.
The story of the Galil beings with the FAL and FALO in the Suez crisis. The IDF had been amongst the very very first costumers of the FN FAL and adopted the 7.62x51mm pretty much from day one. After the fighting in the Suez they felt buyers regret. So they looked around for a more reliable and indigenous weapon. A survey of options was looked at and one rifle they felt was doing better in reliability was the AKs they had picked up in battle. So they sampled more AKs. Yet they felt they could be improved upon. They had a man by the name of Yisrael Balashnikov… (I kid you not) whom prototyped these features into existing AK rifles. IWI liked the features but needed the tooling and specs to build the rifles. Finland becomes involved as they had adopted and were manufacturing the Rk62 rifle probably the best AK type rifles in Europe ever. Anyway before approval goes though Yisrael had changed his name to Galil and that is applied to the rifle.
The IDF however doesn’t adopt the rifle in significant numbers as though multiple “war were declared” The IDF realized that the U.S. M16 rifle is fairly good in desert conditions and more importantly they can get it for a song. Because American industry go Brrrrrrttttt.
Instead the Galil became an export product in the three most successful calibre. 5.56,7.62x39 and 7.62x51mm. In 1975 they licensed production in South Africa as the R4/R5. The first of these are sent from Israel but as time progresses more and more the export customers are making their own and by the 90s the Israelis production is cold the tooling is gone sold off to South Africa and Columbia and it’s the Israelis whom are importing what few Galils they want.
In the late 90s early new millennium IWI and the IDF are introducing the Tavor a Bullpup assault rifle family. As this is happening and that family evolves IWI starts looking into shifting to a more export oriented production line of products. Not just IDF designs sold abbut independent products.
In particular they seem to fork work on the Micro Tavor that will become the X95 rifle into a new AK based rifle that will become the ACE.
The ACE as a design is dramatically different from the Galil in manufacturing and how it’s designed. Though the Galil and ACE share a common AK legacy and two features in terms of improved selector and sights that’s about it everything else has changed. The side charging handle chosen as the rail system and any mounted optical sight would have interfered with the vertical position handle on the og. The M4 style stock chosen in place of the old tubular frame stock as armor is now a thing and better ergonomics. More modern polymer in the pistol grip and hand guard. The Handguard is right off the X95 complete with rail covers Vs the OG Galil with built in bipod. The magazine well is completely different and doesn’t use the OG Galil magazines nor the bottle opener.
They have a common heritage but are completely different machines.