plawolf
Lieutenant General
This video offers some of the best real world demonstrations of what those dB numbers might mean that I have seen.
QBZ-191 service rifle family
- Thread starter Blitzo
- Start date
This video offers some of the best real world demonstrations of what those dB numbers might mean that I have seen.
Honestly don't see the point with upgrades to the qbz191 the handguard and butt stock holds up well and the recoil of the qbz191 isn't high either unlike the AR-15 which needs proper CQB Stance during close range encounters if anything MLOK Urgi is just some beauty contest bullshit for the qbz191 rather than having some use for it. The AR-15/M4 needs it because of its awful ergonomics that doesn't compensate to the shooters comfort nor need.
Sure you get more grip options on the gun but really it's only useful for weapons who struggle with abysmal recoil that needs you to hug the butt stock into your shoulder blade while having thumb overbore grip or C Clamp
China has specialized attachments for those occasions such as infrared lasers that can have a flashlight equipped on top which completely eliminates the point with MLOK
The main reason QBU191 has the MLOK design is because they need to fill the marksman requirement which is bipods and long distance scopes which covers further than the 191 and 192.
The point with qbz19 is to make it a sufficient improvement for the PLA Ground Force which had given good feedback on the overall ergonomics which has been their main issue as long you don't see them complaining it is unlikely the manufacturer will do any changes to the gasblock right now PLA is very happy with it, especially how easy it is to disassemble the 19.
You can also see the PAP having zero issues adapting to CQB stances with the 192 and 191 they still manage to perform them just fine with appropriate attachments that should be enough for CT situations.
If you don't see the point for it, that's fine.
However, clearly a number of other military forces do.
The US military uses URGIs for special force pattern units, and they have M27 IAR with free floated quad rails for the USMC. The new XM-7 based on the MCX Spear also has a free floated handguard.
A number of other military forces with smaller armies that are adopting new rifles for their services are going for free floated handguards typically with M-LOK as standard.
The PLA obviously doesn't need to issue such rifles for all of their infantry as that would be overkill, but for the likes of special forces and more elite units, the extra benefit of a free floated, full length handguard is pretty obvious in terms of giving more real estate for attachments, greater accuracy while retaining the same 14.5-15 inch barrel, and more grip options.
The fact that this third party aftermarket handguard is a full length M-LOK free floated design obviously means that they think there's a market for it in the PLA/PAP/govt, but it's limited by the QBZ-191's inherent gas block/adjustor design requiring that silly cutout notch.
QBZ-191 as a standard rifle is fine, and does a lot right, but let's also accept that if they want to give it a modern full length handguard that it is limited by the gas block/adjustor and would require them to either do that silly cutout notch, or to require a more substantial upgrade involving the gas block design itself, and at that point you may as well ask the QBZ-191's manufacturer to come out with a factory made upper receiver group so it can be changed out easily at the user level as a complete upgrade kit.
Personal preference but I would also like them to add a non-reciprocating ambidextrous charging handle and a bolt carrier similar to the SIG Spear so that we can have more stock options. I pray they make a gen 2 like they did with the QBZ-95 with everything above and that new upper receiver design you guys mention at the 2029 parade though I understand this is wishful thinking. 
The upper receiver upgrades itself should be possible is enough PAP, police, or SF guys ask for it. At least a whole lot more possible than my suggestion.
The upper receiver upgrades itself should be possible is enough PAP, police, or SF guys ask for it. At least a whole lot more possible than my suggestion.
Personal preference but I would also like them to add a non-reciprocating ambidextrous charging handle and a bolt carrier similar to the SIG Spear so that we can have more stock options. I pray they make a gen 2 like they did with the QBZ-95 with everything above and that new upper receiver design you guys mention at the 2029 parade though I understand this is wishful thinking.
The upper receiver upgrades itself should be possible is enough PAP, police, or SF guys ask for it. At least a whole lot more possible than my suggestion.
I think an ambidextrous non reciprocating charging handle and bolt carrier group would necessitate an entirely new variant for the rifle wholesale (upper and lower receiver), and the desire for a reciprocating charging handle seems like one of those things that the PLA probably wants to retain for institutional reasons for better or worse.
But I also think the fact that there is a last round bolt hold open with a left sided bolt release and the charging handle on the right, means that reloading from a spent magazine should be reasonably straight forward even firing from the left side. And they already have ambidextrous fire select anyhow.
That's why I think an upper receiver group upgrade package is probably the most viable way to go if the PLA does want to pursue a more capable standard rifle and carbine variant for the QBZ-191 for say, SOF type units, as it means for the bits that they are probably willing to part away from while also offering meaningful benefits.
A new upper receiver with a free floated M-LOK handguard (maybe even with a monolithic upper), with a freshly redesigned barrel nut, a freshly redesigned gas block/adjustor that is low profile to allow the handguard to extend to the full length near the muzzle yet to still be adjustable (having a hole in the handguard like Sig Spear LT and other similar solutions, see below), means it can just be a slide in replacement kit by just opening up the takedown pins, sliding in the upper receiver and installing a new upper receiver. It also saves money by retaining the existing lower receiver.
Thats less of an flaw and more of a luxury issue the difference here is China at the end of the day quote what works and doesn't break is good enough the qbz191 doesn't need an Urgi MLOK especially how accurate and low recoil it already is.
The PLA doesn't want nor need highly technological or modularized firearms that cost you millions which just adds another additional to the trillions US have invested in firearms and supplies just to get completely swiped away by underequipped cavemen the MCX doesn't change anything it can't go through the mud test and they still haven't addressed the issues with the M4/AR-15 which is what MCX Spear supposedly would be the answer to yet it was wrong instead it became the pageants of firearms rather than a useful asset its no better than you ordinary highly modified M4. it weights more than the M4, still has the awful forward assisst which is still a horrible work around, Its awfully heavy, It has the back charging handle that makes the M1 garand look like spa day and the mag catch response is poor unless you don't overinsert the mag.I think an ambidextrous non reciprocating charging handle and bolt carrier group would necessitate an entirely new variant for the rifle wholesale (upper and lower receiver), and the desire for a reciprocating charging handle seems like one of those things that the PLA probably wants to retain for institutional reasons for better or worse.
But I also think the fact that there is a last round bolt hold open with a left sided bolt release and the charging handle on the right, means that reloading from a spent magazine should be reasonably straight forward even firing from the left side. And they already have ambidextrous fire select anyhow.
That's why I think an upper receiver group upgrade package is probably the most viable way to go if the PLA does want to pursue a more capable standard rifle and carbine variant for the QBZ-191 for say, SOF type units, as it means for the bits that they are probably willing to part away from while also offering meaningful benefits.
A new upper receiver with a free floated M-LOK handguard (maybe even with a monolithic upper), with a freshly redesigned barrel nut, a freshly redesigned gas block/adjustor that is low profile to allow the handguard to extend to the full length near the muzzle yet to still be adjustable (having a hole in the handguard like Sig Spear LT and other similar solutions, see below), means it can just be a slide in replacement kit by just opening up the takedown pins, sliding in the upper receiver and installing a new upper receiver. It also saves money by retaining the existing lower receiver.
The MCX Spear or should I say MCX's takes on M4 which is worse than the MCX Virtus isn't a improvement its an advertisement that hasn't been tested in proper field yet, and other armies looking at it doesn't mean dirt either.
Thats not to say the QBZ191 is perfect, but it sure has its use for many years coming forward considering the PLA won't be warmongering instead remain persistent in their political position unless US does something stupid.
The spear has so many useless ergonomics on it, why even bother keeping the charging handle if you have one from the side already? why having a over insertion prevention feature? and it seems to overgas pretty fast to which is a bad sign.
If you want you can call it an "unneeded error" instead.
The whole purpose of these sort rifles like QBZ-191 is partly to be more easily upgradeable through replacement parts.
The basic QBZ-191 is fine as a rifle and obviously offers significant benefits compared to past Chinese rifles, but at the same time the fact that they designed the adjustable gas block to be so high profile and large rather than designing it to be slightly lower profile, means that third party manufacturers cannot provide continuous full length handguards without a major change or removal to the gas block itself.
That issue obviously doesn't cripple the QBZ-191, but it definitely is something that could have been easily avoidable if they went for a different gas block design which would have made it more modular and easily upgradeable.
? I never said that the PLA should adopt a rifle like the Spear.
Read more carefully.
I only said that the low profile adjustable gas block design and the ability to have a full length handguard over it, is something which a QBZ-191 upgrade package should go for.
For example, see below for a quick and dirty edit which illustrates what I am talking about (I take the Spear LT's low profile gas block and handguard opening to allow the gas block to still be adjustable while keeping a continuous full length handguard/rail on top):
I just had to highlight all the issues before coming to the simple conclusion that The Spear is just a horrible example overall, infact the the barrel comes in two seperate parts which recoil punches the other tube connected to the buffer tube gas block yeah I get that you want the gas block to be smaller, but instead of reinventing the rifle for the PAP just cut off the half of the gasblock lever then you have a straightforward solution that isn't unecessary and expensive.
If you're arguing that the Spear LT has a bunch of overengineered features that the PLA doesn't need, I fully agree with you.
But I've also been pretty consistent in the last few posts when I reference to it, saying that the only part which is useful for the QBZ-191 to take away from the Spear LT is its low profile adjustable gas block which enables a full length rail for the handgaurd.
I don't really care about the rest of the features for Spear LT, so if you're arguing against them then you are preaching for the choir.
If they cut off half of the gas block lever like you suggest, then it means they would be losing the adjustable gas block function, which is quite a useful function.
Chances are a proper solution would need a redesigned gas block entirely.
And if they're doing that for the purposes of having a more capable QBZ-191 variant for the likes of special forces et al, they may as well just redesign the upper receiver and make the following changes to make it a more comprehensive upgrade:
- redesigned barrel nut
- low profile adjustable gas block
- free floated handguard
- possibly a slightly different barrel profile for greater accuracy
But hey, if they're able to just modify the gas block in a simple way which allows it to be low profile while retaining its adjustable function, which allows it to use a new continuous full length handguard, that's fine too.