PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[pla101prc]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Check your history, the Taliban didn't last three weeks at Tora Bora when the US Army went in to clear those caves out. The Soviets certainly struggled for years trying to root the Afghans out of those caves, but the US Army made quick work of it. They would have had Osama been Forgotten right there had one of the War Lords we counted on ( paid ) to help us had not been bought off ( paid even more money ) by OBL to look the other way as he and his top people fled into Pakistan.
Those giant concrete shelters the Germans built wouldn't stop a modern penetrating warhead, and modern guidance systems means bombs could be guided through ventilation shafts or right into the mouth of the cave. A modern GBU can guided through a one meter square opening.
In the cold war, both sides used to play games with each other using dummy subs to fool the other side about the number of boats each side had. For that to work, the satellite has to see them. With SOSUS and SSN's lurking outside Soviet bases, there was seldom any question regarding how many boats the Soviets actually had at sea. Really, in modern warfare, hardened shelters protects little, only maneuver and stealth offer protection.

last time i checked the caves in Vietnam were a lot of trouble for the American forces. and there isnt much we can say about afghanistan cuz we dont know everything that's happening. while modern sub bases are not immune to attacks they certainly make it a lot more difficult

 

[King_Comm]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Question: What's preventing China from using deep sea submersibles to sabotage the SOSUS around China?

 

[Maggern]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Check your history, the Taliban didn't last three weeks at Tora Bora when the US Army went in to clear those caves out. The Soviets certainly struggled for years trying to root the Afghans out of those caves, but the US Army made quick work of it. They would have had Osama been Forgotten right there had one of the War Lords we counted on ( paid ) to help us had not been bought off ( paid even more money ) by OBL to look the other way as he and his top people fled into Pakistan.
Those giant concrete shelters the Germans built wouldn't stop a modern penetrating warhead, and modern guidance systems means bombs could be guided through ventilation shafts or right into the mouth of the cave. A modern GBU can guided through a one meter square opening.
In the cold war, both sides used to play games with each other using dummy subs to fool the other side about the number of boats each side had. For that to work, the satellite has to see them. With SOSUS and SSN's lurking outside Soviet bases, there was seldom any question regarding how many boats the Soviets actually had at sea. Really, in modern warfare, hardened shelters protects little, only maneuver and stealth offer protection.

Oh yes, the US Army pretty much wiped out all opposition pretty quickly. Nothing remains of the Taliban today.

Caves are and will continue to be hell for any aggressor. If one can conceal the entrance, a cave gives you the cover of bedrock, that in many cases few, if any, modern weapons can penetrate (not counting nukes). They can also allow you to move from one place to another underground and come up where the enemy least expects you, out of sight from ground units, aircraft and satellites. Of course, as soon as the caves are found, they're virtually worthless, as it is easy to clear one out, but it still lags the aggressor force in a situation where time and mobility is of the essence.

 

[Pointblank]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

last time i checked the caves in Vietnam were a lot of trouble for the American forces. and there isnt much we can say about afghanistan cuz we dont know everything that's happening. while modern sub bases are not immune to attacks they certainly make it a lot more difficult

Technology and tactics have come a long way over the past couple of decades. Now, nothing that a good old GBU-28 can't penetrate, especially during the first Iraq War, where the weapon was hastily developed for use with the F-111F to destroy hardened Iraqi underground command centres.

So unless the Chinese managed to build a bunker very deep underground with tons of reinforced concrete, there is no way to protect against such munitions for the meantime, as the American's will eventually develop another weapon to do just that very quickly.

 

[Infra_Man99]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Check your history, the Taliban didn't last three weeks at Tora Bora when the US Army went in to clear those caves out. The Soviets certainly struggled for years trying to root the Afghans out of those caves, but the US Army made quick work of it. They would have had Osama been Forgotten right there had one of the War Lords we counted on ( paid ) to help us had not been bought off ( paid even more money ) by OBL to look the other way as he and his top people fled into Pakistan.
Those giant concrete shelters the Germans built wouldn't stop a modern penetrating warhead, and modern guidance systems means bombs could be guided through ventilation shafts or right into the mouth of the cave. A modern GBU can guided through a one meter square opening.
In the cold war, both sides used to play games with each other using dummy subs to fool the other side about the number of boats each side had. For that to work, the satellite has to see them. With SOSUS and SSN's lurking outside Soviet bases, there was seldom any question regarding how many boats the Soviets actually had at sea. Really, in modern warfare, hardened shelters protects little, only maneuver and stealth offer protection.

This wasn't just a matter of which nation has superior bombs. Not even close. The USSR was really fighting a war against the Afghanis supported by the US and some of its allies. There is evidence China and a few Muslim nations were secretly supporting the Afghanis, too. In the USA vs. Aghanistan war, the current war, the Afghanis are receiving far less international support than their earlier war against the USSR. The USSR and US have been struggling, wasting enormous resources, and bringing unnecessary suffering and death trying to control and develop Afghanistan in the ways they see fit. If not for 9/11 or anything similar, the Bush Administration would have just stumbled into Afghanistan with no just reason according to some reports. Then the US would possibly be fighting against an Afghanistan strongly backed my multiple nations. If this was the case, Afghanistan would probably have been a true desert Vietnam. In my opinion, the US would have performed a lot, lot, lot better if it had led with diplomacy, but this solution is almost gone due to the phenomenal failures by chicken hawks.

In regard to engineering a bomb so it can destroy hardened or heavily defended underground facilities, I'll leave that up to people with realistic information in these matters.

 

[Roger604]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Those giant concrete shelters the Germans built wouldn't stop a modern penetrating warhead, and modern guidance systems means bombs could be guided through ventilation shafts or right into the mouth of the cave. A modern GBU can guided through a one meter square opening.

I don't disagree with your general premise. But your figures here are incorrect or misleading. GBU-28 has a CEP of 30 feet, not even close to the 1 meter "can be guided" you suggest.

Besides, it needs laser illumination from somebody on the ground.

 

[Pointblank]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I don't disagree with your general premise. But your figures here are incorrect or misleading. GBU-28 has a CEP of 30 feet, not even close to the 1 meter "can be guided" you suggest.

The EGBU-28 is more accurate as it uses GPS guidance, not laser designation.

Besides, it needs laser illumination from somebody on the ground.

Nope, it can be designated using the Sniper XR targeting pod, or the LITENING targeting pod.

 

[Mashan]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Is this a PLAN submarine thread ? Sub don't work in caves, it best served under water.

 

[Infra_Man99]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Is this a PLAN submarine thread ? Sub don't work in caves, it best served under water.

I think everybody agrees with your statement. The question is what to do with submarines in docks. Do you leave them in the open air or do you hide them in caves? I think hiding is better than nothing, so hide them in caves. If I was in the infantry in war, and was taking a break in the field, reconnoitering at a spot, or holding a position, I would rather hide in tall grass or be in a bunker than stand in an open field. The tall grass or bunker doesn't guarantee stealth or isn't invulnerable, but it's better than standing in an open field. During peacetime, I would care less about hiding. Maybe this concept applies to equipment, vehicles, airplanes, and ships?

 

[Finn McCool]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Check your history, the Taliban didn't last three weeks at Tora Bora when the US Army went in to clear those caves out. The Soviets certainly struggled for years trying to root the Afghans out of those caves, but the US Army made quick work of it. They would have had Osama been Forgotten right there had one of the War Lords we counted on ( paid ) to help us had not been bought off ( paid even more money ) by OBL to look the other way as he and his top people fled into Pakistan.

Well obviously they were cleared out fairly quickly, because we had forces on the ground working in conjunction with the air strikes. I suppose what I should have said is that the caves allowed some Taliban to survive some withering bombardments, even if they were eventually killed, showing that being inside of a mountain still offers some pretty serious protection. Furthermore the SSBN cave would only have to work once to protect the subs from a surprise/preemptive attack. Once the war is on they'll be out at sea anyway. Ultimately this whole debate is pretty pointless as we don't even know if these structures exist for sure.

On the subject of the Tora Bora fiasco, whoever decided that some raggedy Northern Alliance tribesmen were a cheaper way to do the job of setting up a decent blocking position and cutting of ol' Osama's escape route than the Rangers was very very dumb. That was arguably our last best chance to get him as far is publically known for sure.