PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[crobato]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

That's called SOSUS. It was originally laid to track down Soviet subs during the Cold War era. It can be used to track their own subs too, since early USN nukes aren't very quiet either. It has become a bit outdated though, because the avenue of interest has shifted from the open water to the littoral waters, while subs have become a lot quieter; the Han then is still as noisy as an early generation nuclear sub. For the new situation that needs a new generation of sonar equipment. More relevant now is the use of specialized surveillance ships that use SURTASS.

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[dlhh]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

That's called SOSUS. It was originally laid to track down Soviet subs during the Cold War era. It can be used to track their own subs too, since early USN nukes aren't very quiet either. It has become a bit outdated though, because the avenue of interest has shifted from the open water to the littoral waters, while subs have become a lot quieter; the Han then is still as noisy as an early generation nuclear sub. For the new situation that needs a new generation of sonar equipment. More relevant now is the use of specialized surveillance ships that use SURTASS.

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Thanks, Crobato for the website.

FYI, Singapore's latest La Fayette Class FFG from France uses these SURTASS which is supplied by the USA.

Thats why exercises with Singapore & Malaysia would be a good idea. Malaysia is about to receive the latest French Scorpene subs which has a profusion of the latest sonars plus good software to manage the sonars.

 

[man overbored]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I have never heard and imagined such thing as sub designed in cold water is not adaptable in tropical water. This is for me like saying if you designed a car in Sweden where it's cold then the car will not run in Hawaii where it's warm. This is just hard to imagine.

Look at all the volvos and Saabs running around in hot and warm weather.

Eh, this is not so unusual. A few years ago one of the USCG's icebreakers pranged a prop in the Antarctic and a call went out for a Russian icebreaker to fill the gap. The Russians could not provide one of their nuclear icebreakers because according to the Russians their reactors would not cool sufficiently in the warm waters of the mid-Pacific where sea surface temps are typically around 29 degrees C ( 84 degrees F ). The Russians instead had to send a diesel icebreaker. I won't name classes but certain western subs needed all the cooling they had to operate in tropical waters, and even then reactor cooling temps were pretty sporty.

 

[crobato]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

To Jack,

Saabs and Volvos learned their lesson long ago when they started decades ago to begin selling their cars in more tropical countries. The Germans too. Actually the Swede and German car makers had their "hot" experience selling cars in the US, because some parts of the US like Nevada, can get a soaring 120 degrees F, and it was discovered that many European cars didn't have the air conditioning and radiator cooling to meet these challenges. They learned the hard way why even US cars back in the sixties and seventies have powerful air conditioning systems and hefty radiators. Then you started to sell cars in the Middle East, Australia, etc,.

Back to submarines. Those Type 209s Germany exports are often tropicalized. And yes, there has been issues about diesel and nuclear subs that have previously worked in cooler climates suddenly confronting the tropical environment, not to mention you also need to cool the crew, as it can get pretty hot even down there. A more recent example is the used subs that Sweden is selling to Singapore. These subs are going to be modified for the climate.

 

[man overbored]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

To Jack,

Saabs and Volvos learned their lesson long ago when they started decades ago to begin selling their cars in more tropical countries. The Germans too. Actually the Swede and German car makers had their "hot" experience selling cars in the US, because some parts of the US like Nevada, can get a soaring 120 degrees F, and it was discovered that many European cars didn't have the air conditioning and radiator cooling to meet these challenges. They learned the hard way why even US cars back in the sixties and seventies have powerful air conditioning systems and hefty radiators. Then you started to sell cars in the Middle East, Australia, etc,.

Back to submarines. Those Type 209s Germany exports are often tropicalized. And yes, there has been issues about diesel and nuclear subs that have previously worked in cooler climates suddenly confronting the tropical environment, not to mention you also need to cool the crew, as it can get pretty hot even down there. A more recent example is the used subs that Sweden is selling to Singapore. These subs are going to be modified for the climate.

Sweden leased one of their most modern AIP subs, HMS Gotland, to the US Navy for two years complete with a crew which was rotated monthly ( afraid they might decamp permanently in San Diego's warn climate ). The USN used it to see just how big a threat these small AIP subs represent ( short story is not much, good only for barrier ops in choke points ). The boat has to be re-ballasted and re-trimmed to deal with the greater salinity of the Pacific Ocean. One indication of their limited capability, the Gotland is one of the most advanced subs of her type but it had to be brought to San Diego on the back of a chartered well deck ship. it could not make the passage on it's own since such small boats lack the fuel, fresh water, and supply storage for long voyages.

 

[adeptitus]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

One indication of their limited capability, the Gotland is one of the most advanced subs of her type but it had to be brought to San Diego on the back of a chartered well deck ship. it could not make the passage on it's own since such small boats lack the fuel, fresh water, and supply storage for long voyages.

I don't think it'd be fair to discredit the Gotland class on its limited deployment range. The submarine was designed and built to protect Sweden in its home waters and not all the way across the Atlantic.

During WW2 the German Navy was able to deploy U-boats across the Atlantic, and these U-Boats were smaller displacement than the Gotland class. So in terms of capability, I don't see why a diesel sub designed for trans-Atlantic voyage couldn't do it while snorkeling (kinda defeats purpose of stealth, but at least it can make the voyage).

These days the threats presented by an attack sub isn't limited to its low noise level and torpedoes. In the next decade we'll probably see sub-launched cruise missiles with 2,500-5,000 km range. By the time your ASW assets arrive the sub is already long gone.

 

[sandyj]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Yu-8 torpedo: Apparently, it uses the underwater version of thermobaric explosive:

Yu-8 (鱼-8) torpedo is developed by China as the electrically powered counterpart of the Chinese Otto fuel II powered Yu-6 torpedo, with which it shares many components and technologies, with the exception of propulsion system.
Since Otto fuel II powered torpedo cost up to three times of the electrically powered torpedo, Yu-8 torpedo is developed as a cheaper alternative. Very little information is released regarding the torpedo and this new torpedo is shrouded in secrecy. From the very limited information circulating, it is revealed that Yu-8 (鱼-8) torpedo is capable of both ASuW and ASW like Yu-6 torpedo, and it can be launched from a variety of platforms including surface ships, submarines, shore battery, and aircraft. Like all other Chinese torpedoes, Yu-8 torpedo can also be used as part of CAPTOR mine type mine system. Yu-8 torpedo is reportedly the first Chinese torpedo to incorporate wire guidance with optical fiber.
In 2007, domestic Chinese sources have claimed that Yu-8 torpedo had become the test vehicle and subsequently the first torpedo to be armed with a new warhead that was developed by the Chinese naval research institute. The new warhead utilizes sodium hydride compounds / chemical reaction and once detonated, large amount of sodium powder is released. The chemical reaction of sodium powder and sea water produce huge amount of hydrogen at very high temperature within very short period of time and the within range of several dozen meters, the temperature instantly increased to over two thousand degrees (celsius) as the chemical reactions taken place with hydrogen and oxygen, destroying the target even if no direct hit is scored. During the test in East China Sea, a retired twelve thousand ton ship was hit by two Yu-8 torpedoes on one side, and the side that was hit was completely melted within fifteen minutes.

Source: wikipedia.org

 

[crobato]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

As an academic note, the forward torpedo tube arrangement for the 093 and 094 is similar to the Han's and Akula's. That is four on top and two on the bottom like this.

OOOO
-OO--

Not like a Kilo or Yuan's in this configuration.

-OO--
OOOO

This artist illustration didn't get it right.

 

[Pointblank]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I don't think it'd be fair to discredit the Gotland class on its limited deployment range. The submarine was designed and built to protect Sweden in its home waters and not all the way across the Atlantic.

During WW2 the German Navy was able to deploy U-boats across the Atlantic, and these U-Boats were smaller displacement than the Gotland class. So in terms of capability, I don't see why a diesel sub designed for trans-Atlantic voyage couldn't do it while snorkeling (kinda defeats purpose of stealth, but at least it can make the voyage).

These days the threats presented by an attack sub isn't limited to its low noise level and torpedoes. In the next decade we'll probably see sub-launched cruise missiles with 2,500-5,000 km range. By the time your ASW assets arrive the sub is already long gone.

1. German U-boats when they were deployed in the Caribbean or past the Equator were enormously uncomfortable ships to be working in, due to a lack of air conditioning. The same could be said about Soviet submarines that operated far away from the Soviet Union into the same regions.

2. Assuming you can provide targeting and mid-course corrections... otherwise, it is a blind shot.

 

[crobato]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I'm not even sure if this cryptic rumor even deals with submarines. Maybe someone can read through the jargon.

今日海军最猛图：新鱼三装填中 漂亮！


科罗廖夫 2008-06-0

Google translated.

Today, most Meng Navy plans: three new fish filled in the beautiful!

Korolev Liaofu 2008-06-0

Also here below, a Song gets a new torpedo.