PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[Kurt]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I'm fine with you making up stuff in the World forum, but people come here to read about Chinese navy and you gotta stop posting stuff with no evidence here. When you make statements like this, please provide a real (non-wiki) source.


Sina rumour was this. What Kurt is saying is he doesn't believe China has enough military nuclear reactor technology and has to get it from cooperating with Brazilians, who gets from cooperating with the French.

There is just no support that is true.

Man, that sucks. You interpret things that none says and create your own statements to refute.
Brazil and France cooperate on a small dual use nuclear reactor that can be used for the planned Brazilian nuclear submarine. Brazil and China have some general cooperation initiative that is presumed to include more than carrier aviation.

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To what degree Brazil transfers know-how to China, other than teaching them carrier operations, is not knowable from these information bits. Direct French participation in civilian Chinese nuclear power programs resulted in a loud failure, so they might be far from allowing anyone less obvious knowledge transfers. Nonetheless, the parameters derived from a cooperation with Brazil on a nuclear submarine with a French reactor will help China to benchmark their own qualitative development on that field. Chinese development for nuclear submarines presumably focuses on the most rapid evolving part of suitable microchips to maximise the capability of their machinery. Without suitable chips they would have non-smart hardware of doubtful value or a giant unreliable sometimes smart money sink. Where can Brazil get suitable microchips for a nuclear submarine?

 

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Man, that sucks. You interpret things that none says and create your own statements to refute.
Brazil and France cooperate on a small dual use nuclear reactor that can be used for the planned Brazilian nuclear submarine. Brazil and China have some general cooperation initiative that is presumed to include more than carrier aviation.

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To what degree Brazil transfers know-how to China, other than teaching them carrier operations, is not knowable from these information bits. Direct French participation in civilian Chinese nuclear power programs resulted in a loud failure, so they might be far from allowing anyone less obvious knowledge transfers. Nonetheless, the parameters derived from a cooperation with Brazil on a nuclear submarine with a French reactor will help China to benchmark their own qualitative development on that field. Chinese development for nuclear submarines presumably focuses on the most rapid evolving part of suitable microchips to maximise the capability of their machinery. Without suitable chips they would have non-smart hardware of doubtful value or a giant unreliable sometimes smart money sink. Where can Brazil get suitable microchips for a nuclear submarine?

What I said seems to be quite accurate. I said that you made the statement with the belief that China gets nuclear know how from Brazil and that's basically what you are saying in third sentence. Can you point to where in your document does it state that China is getting Brazilian know how on nuclear power?

China has already designed and built 3 generations of nuclear submarines (091, 093 and 095) without this "Brazilian assistance" on nuclear power. Brazil hasn't even produced one generation of it. Why in the world would China get help from Brazil?

How did direct French paricipation in civilian Chinese nuclear program result in a loud failure? The newest EPR reactors from Alstom are under construction in China. Please provide real proof to your statement.

I don't know how a submarine discussion has suddenly turned into a conversation of microchips, but China can produce their own microchips if you actually bother doing some research on this. Their electronics industry have improved a lot in the recent years. They are producing new intel chips in the Tianjin intel plants.

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you can also read about China's self designed loongson series of chips.

And as I've said before, the Chinese defense electronics industry is quite advanced now as seen in cidex 2010. You can see from this washington post article.

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“The type of components I am seeing in China are not readily available anywhere — except maybe in the U.S.,” said a Ukrainian defense electronics specialist who attended the show.

“If I go to a European supplier looking for similar products, they will probably tell me that they are just not in series production yet — maybe in six months or more they might be,” he said.
“The best I might hope for is to be given one or two ‘working models’ that I could only use for development and design work, but nothing I could use to turn out a final, manufactured product for a customer,” the Ukrainian specialist said. “But here in China, I can buy as many of these as I need — and usually at a lower price.”

or this strategycenter article

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Unless you can provide real evidence, please get this back to main topic of submarines rather than keep repeating yourself. Your content will be deleted unless you provide real evidence rather than opinions or speculations.

 

[weig2000]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Very interesting and impressive read. If we connect all the dots (the bits and pieces of news we read over the years), the conclusion is not all that surprising.

I notice the reports below were about CIDEX 2010, two years ago.

"Like many international exhibitions, CIDEX is held once every two years. But the difference between this venue and most other defense expos around the world is that with each show, Chinese industry shows far more growth than most observers expected in 24 months."

Is there any news about CIDEX 2012?

IMO, the shipbuilding industry, the defense electronics industry and the space industry are areas in defense industry where China is close to world-class. We can not say the same thing about all kinds of propulsion and power plant systems, for instance.

And as I've said before, the Chinese defense electronics industry is quite advanced now as seen in cidex 2010. You can see from this washington post article.

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or this strategycenter article

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[no_name]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Type 093 SSN model:

 

[escobar]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

the new sub

 

[Kurt]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Very interesting and impressive read. If we connect all the dots (the bits and pieces of news we read over the years), the conclusion is not all that surprising.

I notice the reports below were about CIDEX 2010, two years ago.

"Like many international exhibitions, CIDEX is held once every two years. But the difference between this venue and most other defense expos around the world is that with each show, Chinese industry shows far more growth than most observers expected in 24 months."

Is there any news about CIDEX 2012?

IMO, the shipbuilding industry, the defense electronics industry and the space industry are areas in defense industry where China is close to world-class. We can not say the same thing about all kinds of propulsion and power plant systems, for instance.

Before this discussion takes an unfortunate turn, I advise tphuang to delve into wikipedia

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and from there to conduct some research on the problem of microchips in nuclear radiation environment. The Brazilian-French nuclear reactor cooperation is clear and none, including me, implies that the reactor cooperation has any connections with China or a know-how transfer from Brazil to China. A nuclear submarine is more than a boat with a nuclear reactor. That's the reason why these are so expensive and countries like China consider it cost effective to operate conventional submarines. Due to all kinds of radiation, that can or can't be reduced via shielding, there is increased structural fatigue and a different architecture of high-performance electronics required. The sources for these special microchips for high radiation environments are most limited, not reactor or construction material know-how.

 

[delft]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Before this discussion takes an unfortunate turn, I advise tphuang to delve into wikipedia

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and from there to conduct some research on the problem of microchips in nuclear radiation environment. The Brazilian-French nuclear reactor cooperation is clear and none, including me, implies that the reactor cooperation has any connections with China or a know-how transfer from Brazil to China. A nuclear submarine is more than a boat with a nuclear reactor. That's the reason why these are so expensive and countries like China consider it cost effective to operate conventional submarines. Due to all kinds of radiation, that can or can't be reduced via shielding, there is increased structural fatigue and a different architecture of high-performance electronics required. The sources for these special microchips for high radiation environments are most limited, not reactor or construction material know-how.

I saw in the thread on spaceflight that China prided itself on its self developed space radiation hardened microchips.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Before this discussion takes an unfortunate turn, I advise tphuang to delve into wikipedia

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and from there to conduct some research on the problem of microchips in nuclear radiation environment. The Brazilian-French nuclear reactor cooperation is clear and none, including me, implies that the reactor cooperation has any connections with China or a know-how transfer from Brazil to China. A nuclear submarine is more than a boat with a nuclear reactor. That's the reason why these are so expensive and countries like China consider it cost effective to operate conventional submarines. Due to all kinds of radiation, that can or can't be reduced via shielding, there is increased structural fatigue and a different architecture of high-performance electronics required. The sources for these special microchips for high radiation environments are most limited, not reactor or construction material know-how.

You make it sound like the Chinese doesn't know a thing about shielding because you read sino brazilian cooperation on irradiation .

But that is fly against the reality. China have built 10 nuclear power submarine and Brazilian has built none. I haven't heard any news that Chinese sailor died from irradiation.

China have built at least 10 nuclear power plant and plan 30 more in next 10 years. China is self sufficient in most of the components including the reactor. There are only 3 or 4 companies that can built nuclear reactor in the whole world . That alone should show you the the level of competence.

I don't know what you mean with fatigue . Fatigue imply reversing load on the power plant component. I don't see that anywhere except on the pump. You mean early incipient of creep due to radiation?

As to irradiation resistance Chips? China is self sufficient in that too. I am the one that put the article on Space thread

With SoC technology, Chinese aerospace platform is no longer in a situation of continued requirement on foreign chips, but to base on domestic design, production and technological level, and to determine the more reasonable aerospace electronics technology, system architecture, and performance specifications, and make the progressive realization of the high-end chip production’s localization. SoC technology is the key strategic technology to realize core components independence.

SoC2008 is a high-performance SOC chip oriented for aerospace electronic systems, with low-power and anti-radiation enhancement. It can meet the application needs of all kinds of spaceborne electronic systems. SoC2008 overall performance is equal with products launched in Europe in 2010, reached the international advanced level in the same period. SoC2008 has been applied in CAST100 series small satellite platform’s control computer, long-life star sensor control computer, satellite landing central control unit, space station robotic arm subsystem controller and cargo spacecraft GNC subsystems guidance.

 

[Quickie]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The sources for these special microchips for high radiation environments are most limited, not reactor or construction material know-how.

If radiation is that much a problem to the microchips, it'll kill the submarine crews first, long before it causes problem to the microchips.

 

[alopes]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Before this discussion takes an unfortunate turn, I advise tphuang to delve into wikipedia

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and from there to conduct some research on the problem of microchips in nuclear radiation environment. The Brazilian-French nuclear reactor cooperation is clear and none, including me, implies that the reactor cooperation has any connections with China or a know-how transfer from Brazil to China. A nuclear submarine is more than a boat with a nuclear reactor. That's the reason why these are so expensive and countries like China consider it cost effective to operate conventional submarines. Due to all kinds of radiation, that can or can't be reduced via shielding, there is increased structural fatigue and a different architecture of high-performance electronics required. The sources for these special microchips for high radiation environments are most limited, not reactor or construction material know-how.

Off Topic - There is no submarine nuclear reactor cooperation between France and Brasil. The Deal is for France to transfer the technology to build the hull of the submarine and some other systems, less the nuclear reactor.

Brasil will have to develope its own reactor and have done research on this matter since the 80thies without effective application so far (actually it is said that the prototype reactor is partially ready and stored, but the navy is building a new complex to test a new reactor with the entire propulsion system).
link -

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A new state company has just being created this year to begin the design of the prototype propulsion system.
Of the five diesel submarines in the Brasilian Navy, only two are in conditions to operate in the sea.
Today the actual prediction is for the first nuclear submarine to be launched in 2023 and to be operational in 2025.

links-
Opening of the Submarine Design office in 07/06/2012 -

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About the deal for the tranfer of technology to build conventional submarines from France to Brasil.

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Here it is described about the begining of the research of a new multi-purpose reactor that will help in the building of the prototype of the submarine reactor.

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Off Topic