PLAN Sovremenny DDG 136, 137, 138 & 139 Thread

[Tam]

Do you guys think it will get YJ-12A and HHQ-10 like 136 ? or better ?

It will get both like the 136. What the 138 might have instead of the 136, which I suspect, is the small Type 368 double sided AESA to replace the Pozitiv radar that's set above the hanger. This radar separates the 138 and 139 from 136 and 137 and all the other previous Pr.956. What this radar does is scan for antiship missiles flying low over the water. The radar is the eyes for it's close range defenses.

The original 136 and 137 lacked the Type 364 radar that's the eyes for the close range defenses and scans and tracks antiship missiles. As part of the upgrade, the Type 364 is added to both ships. The Type 364 is responsible for queing the HHQ-10s, Type 730/1130s and H/PJ-13s, along with associate radars for the guns towards low flying threats.

However compared to the Type 364, the Pozitiv-E radar is 3D while 364 is still 2D. The Pozitiv's X-band is probably superior over the Type 364's C band for this particular low altitude, surface search scanning. Higher frequency is more resistant to sea clutter.

Ironically, the PLAN was requiring low altitude search radars into their ships, and the Russian ship builders abided to this request by modifying the Pr. 956 design with the Pozitiv radar used on the Admiral Grigorovich class (interview with the ship builder said they believed the Chinese would order Admiral Grigorovich class frigates which considered Chinese requirements in mind).

Going back to today, the small double sided phase array which I will call Type 368, which we see on the Type 075, the last batch of 052D and the 054B is the replacement for the Type 364. This might operate on X-band, and has true 3D capabilities with scanning both elevation and horizon. Logically this radar is best to replace the Pozitiv-E from the 138 and 139. The only question is the power and weight requirements of the new radar on whether these can be supported by the radar mount.

Should this new double sided radar is mounted on the 138 and 139, this could give the ships better defense capabilities over the 136 and 137 even if the armaments are the same.

 

[Lethe]

Ironically, the PLAN was requiring low altitude search radars into their ships, and the Russian ship builders abided to this request by modifying the Pr. 956 design with the Pozitiv radar used on the Admiral Grigorovich class (interview with the ship builder said they believed the Chinese would order Admiral Grigorovich class frigates which considered Chinese requirements in mind).

That's interesting. Do you have a link to this interview?

 

[Tam]

That's interesting. Do you have a link to this interview?

No more though I posted the text in the CDF long ago so its somewhere deep buried inside.

 

[Lethe]

No more though I posted the text in the CDF long ago so its somewhere deep buried inside.

I found

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interview with Vladimir Yukhnin, former CEO of Severnoye Design Bureau, that discusses the offer of Pr. 11356 frigates to China, though it does not include details about requested or anticipated modifications to radar configurations. The interview was also published on the

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in July 2017, which fits with India's order for Talwar Batch 3 ships not being cited as a done deal. Some interesting excerpts:

Severnoye developed several fleet destroyers for the Chinese Navy in the 1990s and 2000s. Do you currently have similar export programs?

We are still working only with the Indians, mainly coasting along on the momentum gained in previous years. As for the Chinese, they are a special people: they have learned how to do everything on their own, and they don’t need anybody’s help any more. But we did help them a lot in the past; I had many business trips to China. The Chinese are very good at copying: they buy a sample, study it, then start making copies. They are very good at industrial espionage. I recall a negotiation in Beijing; the room where it was held was chock-full of microphones to eavesdrop on conversations between members of the Russian delegation. I once took them by surprise by suddenly walking into the next room, and saw them listening in and recording us.

Why did the Indian Navy choose Project 11356 ships?

That’s an interesting one. Back at the time, the Chinese and the Indians approached us at the same time, looking to buy surface ships. We offered Project 11356 to them both, but the Chinese had some special requirements; they wanted the ship to be equipped with the Moskit cruise missile, which had a 110km range and a heavy warhead, to guarantee assured destruction of U.S. Navy ships. The Indians, on the other hand, just wanted a versatile ship with a good offensive and anti-submarine capability. The frigate is armed with Club missiles, which are also very good, but not quite as heavy, and fly at a subsonic speed. Still, they were adequate for the potential adversaries India had in mind. So, the Indians and the Chinese had different approaches.

You have mentioned the issue of proper operation and maintenance. This is probably one of the greatest problems in our own Navy, and a perfect example of it is the tragic story of the Project 956 fleet destroyers. What are the reasons for these difficulties?

The reason is inadequate maintenance. The key component in these propulsion units are the boilers, and boilers are very sensitive to water purity. The boilers would fail very rapidly because there was next to no water treatment. The problem did not affect the Project 956E and Project 956EM destroyers we supplied to China, to the number of four, because the Chinese followed all the proper procedures for water treatment.

Was it actually the right decision to sell Project 956 fleet destroyers to the Chinese?

The two remaining hulls were rotting at the Northern Shipyards. The shipyard itself was idle. By selling these ships, we managed to keep the shipyard from going under. It was a desperate situation at the time. Then the Chinese got a taste for it, and the next pair of Project 956EM ships were a complete new build. They were also equipped with modified Moskit missiles, whose range was increased to 220km. The Chinese customers were left very happy.

 

[snake65]

Positiv radar on 956EM did not come under separate request rather as a "command module" for 2 Kortik CIWS. This was a standard export combo also appearing on second batch of Indian Talwars. Reportedly India wasn't happy with Kortik's and on 3rd batch they swapped for AK-630M, but the Positiv was retained.
Positiv is currently used as target acquisition radar in conjunction with Pantsyr-M and Palash CIWS.

 

[blindsight]

Yes, a single HQ-10 while retaining 4 AK-630 CIWS. 138/139 instead have 2 Kortik CIWS replacing 4xAK-630, I expect these changed to HP/J-11 or 12 complimented with 1-2 HQ-10.

I kind of have a feeling that they probably won't replace the Kortiks.

 

[HardBall]

Said to be a satellite photo of Taizhou (DDG-138) undergoing MLU works. Taizhou is the first ship of the 956EM twins commissioned in 2005.

Posted by @鼎盛大彪 on Weibo.

View attachment 140880

Похоже, они делают что-то интересное там, где находится автоматический механизм заряжания ракетной установки «Штиль», сразу за ангарной палубой.