PLAN SCS Bases/Islands/Vessels (Not a Strategy Page)

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Normally i dont post on SCS threads (very political), but what chinese CG ships have done is not the way to behave at sea, even if they werent at indonesian territorial waters, and just at disputed EEZ waters. Just because china has a lot of CG vessels and the others dont, doesnt give them the legitimacy to do it, at least not in a way that will keep the friendship of these same nations. Although i think that in this case the chinese top leadership is aware that they went too far, judging by their intentions for indonesia to keep quiet about it:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


However now indonesia is getting ready for more escalation.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


IMO china must start to put red lines on its CG fleet. I understand that china is an infant naval power, and CG vessels perhabs dont have the same standart of behaviour as PLAN. However if incidents like these keep happening, china will have another adversary in SE asia, something that they really dont want to see. China already has more than enough of them in east asia, specially if we are talking about indonesia, a 255 million people nation.

Natuna itself has never been in dispute China recognized Indonesian sovereignty on the island what is disputed is the EEZ zone because it overlap with China claim

China is right when she said it was traditionally Chinese fishing area . The original population of Natuna are Chinese until 1970 when the government start he transmigration project to resettle Malay from overcrowded island of Java and Sumatra.

There are even petition from local Chinese to China back in 60's to incorporate Natuna into Chinese territory. But China decline because it is weak and under embargo. It need all the friend they can get. Plus in 60's China and Indonesia are allies. So count your blessing

Indonesia plan to station 1 regiment of F 16 is meaningless gesture Indonesia is the most corrupt government in Asia . She has no way to match China and she need all the help from China to revive their flagging economy, Nobody want to invest in Indonesia because of red tape, corruption and rent seeker everywhere. Nothing get done in Indonesia .
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


the infrastructure are leftover from Colonial time. China is the only game in town

What they need are to sit down and discuss joint fishing right in the area

China coast guard function is to protect Chinese fisherman as such their action is justified

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Natuna Islands

Introducing Indonesia to the South China Sea issue
-
Tunchinmang Langel Abstract Indonesia was largely not a part of the whole South China Sea issue until China started demarcating its nine-dash line policy which overlapped Indonesia's Natuna Islands Exclusive economic zone (EEZ). With this paper we will look into how a neutral nation and the largest Southeast Asian country found itself from one end of an impartial spectator and self-appointed honest broker in this regional dispute to beginning to transform itself into a "global maritime nexus". To understand the significance of Natuna one has to go back and re-read the past histories of Indonesia and China, without which the very idea of why such a tiny island is even being placed at such a high pedestal will not be understood. Although contemporary researchers and scientist will point out to the vast reservoirs of unexcavated reserves of potential oil and gas fields lying dormant in the EEZ area of Natuna Islands as one and only primary reason. However, contrary to popular beliefs the roots lie deep in the past. Introduction
Indonesia’s Natuna Islands which lie closer to Kuala Lumpur than Jakarta itself was and is
known to be an island of peaceful calm, where unnecessary trouble does not rise about from thin air. The men are humble fishermen trying to make ends meet by going to the sea and bringing back their daily catch. Until the Chinese policy of claiming almost the whole of its backyard, especially the South China Sea, changed for the worst, Indonesia was just a watchful eye or an idle witness to the entire South China Sea kerfuffle. If we go back a little into history, we will find that the Natuna archipelago has been the subject of an Indonesia-China dispute before as well. The majority of Natuna residents were ethnic Chinese unt8il 1970s. Anti-Chinese riots occurred in Indonesia in the 1960s, early 1980s, and again in 1998, leading to a sharp decline in the ethnic Chinese population on Natuna from an estimated 5,000-6,000 to somewhere over 1,000 currently. There are stories and allegations that ethnic Chinese residents of Natuna Island held meeting (never publicly confirmed) with Deng Xiaoping (China's premier from 1978 to 1992) and they asked Deng to either back their bid for independence from Indonesia, or bring their island under Chinese suzerainty.

The Indonesian government in the 1980s started to relocate ethnic Malay Indonesians to Natuna, and the official reason given was of

importing skills and relieving population pressures on the overc
rowded main island of Java”,
2
people of Malay ethnicity now number approximately 80,000 in the Natuna Islands group
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Natuna itself has never been in dispute China recognized Indonesian sovereignty on the island what is disputed is the EEZ zone because it overlap with China claim
What is China's claim? If some of its "traditional" fishing grounds now reside in others EEZ, which China isn't disputing in Natuna's case, then Chinese fishing boats must obey lawful rules of the host country.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
What is China's claim? If some of its "traditional" fishing grounds now reside in others EEZ, which China isn't disputing in Natuna's case, then Chinese fishing boats must obey lawful rules of the host country.

They need to compromise modeled after Japan-Taiwan fishery agreement can be the model
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


the territorial seas around the disputed Senkaku (Diaoyutai) Islands, over which both Japan and Taiwan claim sovereignty. Under the agreement, Japanese and Taiwanese fishing boats in the area are exempted from the jurisdiction of each other’s law enforcement, and the two sides agreed to discuss resource conservation and common fishing rules.
 
Last edited:

kroko

Senior Member
Natuna itself has never been in dispute China recognized Indonesian sovereignty on the island what is disputed is the EEZ zone because it overlap with China claim.

Ok. First you say that natuna islands belong to indonesia, then argue that natuna islands have been majorily populated by chinese in the past to justify EEZ disputes????

Indonesia plan to station 1 regiment of F 16 is meaningless gesture Indonesia is the most corrupt government in Asia . She has no way to match China and she need all the help from China to revive their flagging economy, Nobody want to invest in Indonesia because of red tape, corruption and rent seeker everywhere. Nothing get done in Indonesia .
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


the infrastructure are leftover from Colonial time. China is the only game in town

Now your argument is that indonesia is a failed state, and that it doesnt have any other choice but to negociate with China its sovereign EEZ rights. Nice argument.

What they need are to sit down and discuss joint fishing right in the area

No they dont. China recognizes indonesia sovereigny over natuna islands, but indonesia doesnt recognizes chinese sovereigny over spratley islands. Indonesia has no obligation to discuss anything with China.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
They need to compromise modeled after Japan-Taiwan fishery agreement can be the model
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


the territorial seas around the disputed Senkaku (Diaoyutai) Islands, over which both Japan and Taiwan claim sovereignty. Under the agreement, Japanese and Taiwanese fishing boats in the area are exempted from the jurisdiction of each other’s law enforcement, and the two sides agreed to discuss resource conservation and common fishing rules.
We agree equal-treatment compromises through diplomacy is the best solution, and that's what will probably happen. However, the elephant in the SCS is China's refusal to make crystal clear its claims- ALL its claims. If it really doesn't make any maritime claims, beyond all normal territorial waters around all the islands, rocks, and features in the 9-dash line, then it should say/register that with the UN, so there's no way anyone could misinterpret. Keeping the 9-dash line vague may be to Beijing's advantage, but it has and will continue to sow discord in the region.

Frankly, China should come out and say it's instituting its own version of the Monroe Doctrine in the SCS, since that's what everyone believes anyway.
 

nfgc

New Member
Registered Member
China is right when she said it was traditionally Chinese fishing area . The original population of Natuna are Chinese until 1970 when the government start he transmigration project to resettle Malay from overcrowded island of Java and Sumatra.

There are even petition from local Chinese to China back in 60's to incorporate Natuna into Chinese territory. But China decline because it is weak and under embargo. It need all the friend they can get. Plus in 60's China and Indonesia are allies. So count your blessing.

Yet another person who confirms my assertion that China will continue to expand its claims based upon revanchist (what was once China's is forever China's territory) international policy.

Overlapping claims? Within sight of Indonesia? This will be justifed over and over by Hendrik and those who agree.

Singapore has a large Chinese population therefore it was traditionally China's therefore...this will never end. By extension, San Francisco is Chinese territory.

Does Spain claim Mexico? No.
Does Portugal claim Brasil? No.
Does Thailand claim Cambodia? No.

This position is not accepted by anyone on this planet.
Only China has an overtly revanchist policy of justifying land grabs due to traditional usage of an area.
 

nfgc

New Member
Registered Member
Frankly, China should come out and say it's instituting its own version of the Monroe Doctrine in the SCS, since that's what everyone believes anyway.

For your example to be valid the USA would have to be reclaiming land off the coast of Buenos Aires and sailing USCG vessels into South American lIttoral waters within sight of the coast.

The US Coast Guard does not operate just off the shores of South American nations.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
Yet another person who confirms my assertion that China will continue to expand its claims based upon revanchist (what was once China's is forever China's territory) international policy.

Overlapping claims? Within sight of Indonesia? This will be justifed over and over by Hendrik and those who agree.

Singapore has a large Chinese population therefore it was traditionally China's therefore...this will never end. By extension, San Francisco is Chinese territory.

Does Spain claim Mexico? No.
Does Portugal claim Brasil? No.
Does Thailand claim Cambodia? No.

This position is not accepted by anyone on this planet.
Only China has an overtly revanchist policy of justifying land grabs due to traditional usage of an area.


Who knows? Maybe China in the future would annex Natunas Island like Russian annexed Crimea.
Indonesia already has like, 10,000 islands? It wouldn't care for Natunas.
By that time, you would really crying out for china's revisionist policy. This is just the start. So, cross your fingers.
 

nfgc

New Member
Registered Member
Who knows? Maybe China in the future would annex Natunas Island like Russian annexed Crimea.

Q.E.D.
My argument is proven.
Many of the pro-Chinese posters here are blatant territorial expansionists and your post confirms.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
For your example to be valid the USA would have to be reclaiming land off the coast of Buenos Aires and sailing USCG vessels into South American lIttoral waters within sight of the coast.

The US Coast Guard does not operate just off the shores of South American nations.
Difference is, US is surrounded by weak countries north and south, and oceans east and west, so it doesn't need to build artificial islands to dominate the Greater Carribeaan, just a great navy. China, on the other hand, is surrounded by great powers and strong mid-level powers, and it's also a late comer to the SCS land grab. To implement Chi-roe Doctrine, it needs to dominate the SCS, but with other powers already in strong positions, it faced with either recovering land others now occupy by force, or build its own artificial islands.
 
Top