PLAN Naval Helicopter & ASW Capability II
- Thread starter bd popeye
- Start date
Did the captain know Hezbollah had those missiles? Can you demonstrate this? Was the CIWS for sure turned on, contrary to reports? Can you demonstrate this? And again, you have not given a rationale for why the PLAN is equipping every major warship with CIWS. Is the PLAN stupid or something?
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
During wartime they didn't turn on their defenses? And you think what I'm saying is illogical? What's this technology for if they're not going to use it? Right after the incident happened one of the first things they said was it was a missile given to Hezbollah from Iran. So the Israelis knew beforehand those missiles were in the hands of Hezbollah. That info didn't reach the Captain because they needed the pony express and there weren't any horses around?
Yes I know the two third rails people are not suppose to touch are questioning Western and allied technology and military professionalism. Which one failed here? That's why the reports after the incidents were a mess and the "facts" changed all the time. They didn't want to admit one or both failed. I know with professionalism in question one can blame it on a bad apple but when it comes to technology... hard to claim it was a bad apple without sacrificing professionalism. Denial is what happens when things are made out to be absolute when they're not.
There are any number of reasons the CIWS wasn't turned on, as reported. In order for your conspiracy theory to be true, you would have to discount every possible other explanation. Regardless, I am not claiming Western technology is infallible. What I am claiming and you are not denying is that the PLAN is placing CIWS on every major warship. If according to you CIWS is so terribad, then the PLAN either is ignorant and doesn't know what you know, or the PLAN is just plain stupid. Which one do you think it is?
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
Where did I say it was a conspiracy theory? It's obvious when people are denial they all say all kinds of things that will contradict each another. They have to be on the same page for a conspiracy. They didn't get their facts straight with this incident hence no conspiracy and that's why what was said was a mess. Never said CIWS is terrible. I am questioning your claim that CIWS would be laughing at any one of these missiles being fired at it. Did I say CIWS does not work at all? Where did I say that? No, that's your black and white thinking that's assuming it because that's the opposite of what you believe since I'm questioning your conclusion. All that PLAN stuff is just a distraction from the point being discussed because I never said it was useless for you to then claim and infer I was too that the Chinese must be stupid for using it.
You may have never said it, but unless this was your implication then there is no point at all in bringing up the fact that the Sa'ar-5 was hit by an ASCM. Regardless, the point of me saying that the CIWS would "laugh" at the YJ-9 is obviously a reference to its small size and not directly to the capabilities of the CIWS, size being the actual point of discussion of the thread prior to you starting to spin your theories about the Sa'ar-5's CIWS effectiveness.
MwRYum
Major
YJ-9 is just about the same class as the Sea Skua or Penguin, also deployable by helicopter, against small vessels such as patrol craft or FACs. It simply lacks the punch to take a FFG out of the game with one shot - something that it ain't designed for anyway - so it ain't that much of a hunter-killer to be worried by those with proper navy...those that has at most corvettes and SAM capability is point-defense types or worse, just manually-operated AAA will have to worry about them though.
Besides, Z-9 by far is lacking in every way except the speed department, not an ideal platform when comes to multi-role for any major-league player, such as the PLAN which has set its eyes for the major-league. However, given that even the SH-60 carries only Penguin (phasing out) or racks of Hellfire, when the PLAN finally gets their naval variant of Z-20, their helicopter anti-ship firepower won't be any heavier than the YJ-9, alas with more range and endurance than with Z-9 as of now.
Besides, Z-9 by far is lacking in every way except the speed department, not an ideal platform when comes to multi-role for any major-league player, such as the PLAN which has set its eyes for the major-league. However, given that even the SH-60 carries only Penguin (phasing out) or racks of Hellfire, when the PLAN finally gets their naval variant of Z-20, their helicopter anti-ship firepower won't be any heavier than the YJ-9, alas with more range and endurance than with Z-9 as of now.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
It was hit by a missile. Three crew were killed which in the beginning they also denied any casualties occurred. The CIWS was design to do what again? By the pictures of the damage to the ship it looks it may not have taken a direct hit but then the CIWS would've had to have been engaged to destroy the missile before it took a direct hit. That would still be considered a failure that it got that close to do damage still.
They were at war. They knew Hezbollah were in possession of these types of missiles. So the safe bet was to leave their defenses off? And you think my conclusions were extreme? Why would CIWS laugh with cocky confidence at these type of missiles again? Something failed and they're in denial. Just saying it wasn't on makes it so easy, doesn't it? Maybe the sensors just didn't see it like the obsolete Seersucker that hit Kuwait City without being detected so the weapon system didn't engage...
Does diameter size of the YJ-9 and a C-802 really change the hit probability that much because that's what a CIWS only sees. It's only a game of inches from that perspective. The reason why a CIWS fires hundreds maybe thousand of rounds at a target is to increase hit probability. If it's so accurate because of the technology behind it, you wouldn't need hundreds maybe thousands of rounds to hit one target.
No, your CLAIM was that "something failed", for which you have absolutely no evidence. You have the burden of proof here, not me. And in fact your claim here IS that CIWS is terrible, though you stated in your previous post that this was not what you were claiming.
My attempt to humorously anthropomorphize a CIWS has now been taken way out of proportion by you for reasons still unclear to me, to the point that you are now even asking why would a CIWS laugh at a YJ-9 since their diameter only differs by inches and so apparently the Pk on both is similar. It's called a joke. Meant to highlight the small size of the YJ-9.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
No, your CLAIM was that "something failed", for which you have absolutely no evidence. You have the burden of proof here, not me. And in fact your claim here IS that CIWS is terrible, though you stated in your previous post that this was not what you were claiming.
My attempt to humorously anthropomorphize a CIWS has now been taken way out of proportion by you for reasons still unclear to me, to the point that you are now even asking why would a CIWS laugh at a YJ-9 since their diameter only differs by inches and so apparently the Pk on both is similar. It's called a joke. Meant to highlight the small size of the YJ-9.
Digressing again? You're the only one that takes it out of proportion because I dared to question your conclusion. That's why you bothered. And if you didn't get it, I was comparing your denial with the Sa'ar 5 incident.
Something did fail. Burden of proof? It had CIWS during a war and was hit by a missile. You said they didn't know Hezbollah had those types of missiles. They did know.