PLAN Naval Aviation Training Facility

Jeff Head said:

It might be said, that the true measur eof a military is really in being so well trained, and so well prepared, that adversaries recognize the futility in fighting and so combat is not engaged.

In order for that to be the case, your training must be so realistic, and your capabilities in that regard so obvious well known, and respected, that the adversaries see it and decide not to engage it.

That will not always hold...but it is the ideal.

I do not believe anyone is underestimating the Chinese. Their own history indicates that when engaged, they are dedicated and willing to do what they have to do to achieve their goals. In times past, people have understood that that would require huge human sacrifice because of a lag in technoilogical capability offset by huge numbes of personnel where the strategy would be to use those numbers to offset the other.

Now, however, the Chinese are to a point with their economy and with their finances and technical capabilities, that they are developing and adding the technical capabilities that are close to, or at parity with the leading technology. Any nation would be foolish to the point of derilection to underestimate what that can mean.

The PRC and the PLAN are demonstrating that very principle with how fast they are setting up their carrier operations and the underlying technology, infrastructure, and industry to support it. For us watching, ten years seems like a long time...but given the historical perspective, it is coming together very rapidly.

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That is very true Jeff and you are wise to notice that. Also most folks think of China's military 'prowess' only in the scope of last 50-75 years i.e Korean War, Vietnam etc because that is what they can relate to. From that standpoint China did lack significant technological advantage and used human power to achieve tactical goals.

However China is a a very very old country and if you stretch that back a few more centuries, most historians will argue at one point in time China's technology is at par and many cases surpass those of the mighty European powers.

During the height of the Ming Dynasty, their naval power is probably equivalent to what USN today is which is far ahead of everyone else.

Compare Christopher Columbus's flag ship to one of Admiral Zheng He's ship.

kwaigonegin said:

That is very true Jeff and you are wise to notice that. Also most folks think of China's military 'prowess' only in the scope of last 50-75 years i.e Korean War, Vietnam etc because that is what they can relate to. From that standpoint China did lack significant technological advantage and used human power to achieve tactical goals.

However China is a a very very old country and if you stretch that back a few more centuries, most historians will argue at one point in time China's technology is at par and many cases surpass those of the mighty European powers.

During the height of the Ming Dynasty, their naval power is probably equivalent to what USN today is which is far ahead of everyone else.

Compare Christopher Columbus's flag ship to one of Admiral Zheng He's ship.

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Yes, China only fell behind in the past 150 years. Before that, China had been leading the world militarily, economically and socially for millennia. There was a show about naval powers on the History. One expert said that a single convoy led by Zheng He to survey the world in early 1400's was larger than all the navies combined in the entire Europe.

kwaigonegin said:

That is very true Jeff and you are wise to notice that. Also most folks think of China's military 'prowess' only in the scope of last 50-75 years i.e Korean War, Vietnam etc because that is what they can relate to. From that standpoint China did lack significant technological advantage and used human power to achieve tactical goals.

However China is a a very very old country and if you stretch that back a few more centuries, most historians will argue at one point in time China's technology is at par and many cases surpass those of the mighty European powers.

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In the longer term historical context, you are right.

kwaigonegin said:

During the height of the Ming Dynasty, their naval power is probably equivalent to what USN today is which is far ahead of everyone else.

Compare Christopher Columbus's flag ship to one of Admiral Zheng He's ship.

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Well, to be fair, Christopher Columbus was on an expedition of discovery, not a large military mission. He was very limited by finances and funding.

For a proper comparison, you would have to compare the flagships of the Spanish or British feet of 1492 with the Chinese flagship of the day...and in that, I do not think you would find the kind of disparity you are talking about.

Nevertheless, today, and projecting into the next 50 years, short of a major setback, either to China or the world as a whole, we will see China climb back to the upper rungs of the technology ladder with any other leading nations of the world.

Well, Jeff , let's compare Admiral Zheng He's ship with the largest ship of Europe at its time: Henry Grace à Dieu of 1514:
Henry had a length of about 50 m or 165', was of 1500 ton burden and had a complement of 700 to 1000. The Admirals ship is estimated at a length of 127 m and a beam of 52 m ( 416' by 170' ).
I remember reading in Needham's Science and Civilization of China, the part about nautical technology, that a rudder king was found from the time of the Admiral and that assuming that the proportions of the ships of the Admiral were the same as that of recent junks the size of the corresponding ship can be calculated. Quite likely a large ship has a proportionally smaller rudder, so the real ship was likely larger. Does anyone has the information and was that the basis for the numbers given above?

The examples mentioned are from different time period. 1514 is a century later than the time of Zheng He. Similarly, the Zheng He Expeditions started a few generations earlier than the voyages of Christoper Columbus, from 1405 to 1433.

delft said:

Well, Jeff , let's compare Admiral Zheng He's ship with the largest ship of Europe at its time: Henry Grace à Dieu of 1514:

Henry had a length of about 50 m or 165', was of 1500 ton burden and had a complement of 700 to 1000. The Admirals ship is estimated at a length of 127 m and a beam of 52 m ( 416' by 170' ).

I remember reading in Needham's Science and Civilization of China, the part about nautical technology, that a rudder king was found from the time of the Admiral and that assuming that the proportions of the ships of the Admiral were the same as that of recent junks the size of the corresponding ship can be calculated.

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The Great Harry was an awesome ship, and it was designed for fighting with over 200 guns.

The exact dimensions of Admiral He's flagship are very much in dispute. You have quoted the absolute high end of those numbers, but those high end numbers are contested by many naval ship deisgners and historians. That said, I will grant that there is little doubt that Admiral He's flagship was much larger than the Great Harry.

However, that flagship was made for trade and bringing the "treasures" of the nations/cultures surronding the oceans (mainly the Indian Ocean) he visited back to China. And the effort, while stupendous and very impressive, did not last long. The next Emperor was not interested in that type of trade, and his ships were laid up and essentially rotted away...which was a very sad thing IMHO. They were singular vessels.

I am not at all sure what the outcome would have been had an English fleet made up of Man-of-War vessels of the day met and fought a Chinese fleet under Admiral He. I suspect that the fleet that was purpose designed for fighting would have ended up the victor...but I do not know that. There is simply not enough known about the war fighting capabilities of Admiral He's vessels.

As to long term trade routes and how they benefited nations, I believe what the Spanish accomplished from the 1530s well into the 1700s (for over 200 years running) was the longest standing and most profitable (relative) maritime trade activites by a single nation in recorded history...particularly given the technology available at the time.

But, we are WAY, WAY off topic as regards this thread about the PLAN NAval Aviation Facility. Can we get back on topic please?

Gents, Guess what? We have a history forum.

Military History

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bd popeye super moderator

Jeff, I believe you mean the Ka-28 rather than Ka-25.

Preux said:

Jeff, I believe you mean the Ka-28 rather than Ka-25.

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You are correct.

Great Job Jeff. I finally had sometime today to review this. I don't get time these days to look at satellite photos, so it's always nice to see yourself and other members look through them and present the information.