PLAN invited to participate in RIMPAC for first the time (2014)

I don't mean to rain on this parade but what's significant about China participating in RIMPAC? I know it's the first time but what's so great about the exercise? Is it a sparking opportunity for China to gather intelligence on other navies?

Geographer said:

I don't mean to rain on this parade but what's significant about China participating in RIMPAC? I know it's the first time but what's so great about the exercise? Is it a sparking opportunity for China to gather intelligence on other navies?

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IMHO, other than kumbaya symbolism, PLAN participation in RIMPAC isn't a big deal. As for China taking the opportunity to spy as much as it can, was there ever any doubt of that? On the other hand, US could benefit by watching how PLAN spys and build dossiers on important PLAN officers. Who knows, maybe the sights and sounds of Hawaii could even co-opt PLAN personnel to defect.

Geographer said:

I don't mean to rain on this parade but what's significant about China participating in RIMPAC? I know it's the first time but what's so great about the exercise? Is it a sparking opportunity for China to gather intelligence on other navies?

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Several things:

1) It has never happened before, so it is historic.

2) It represents both in the invite and the acceptance a good faith effort by the tow largest economies and powers in the Pacific region to reach out to each other in a peaceful way ay a fairly high level.

3) It gives the personnel of both navies (and many other US allies) a chance to interact with one another both professionally and socially. This would be from the lower sailors up to fairly high command personnel. They will come to respect each other professionally and perhaps even make some contacts that will last for years.

All of these are most certainly a "big deal."

As to spying...both sides are very aware of the SIGINT capabilities of the other wand will take whatever appropriate measures while conducting exercises together to limit any critical exposure. There is apt to be very little gained in that regard.

As to defections? Very unlikely. The PLAN will make sure that the personnel on this exercise are very loyal, and that their opportunities for any one-on-one exposure with anything that might even faintly smell of any kind of such operations simply do not exist. It would be very unwise, and defeat the purpose of the whole thing for either side to try and conduct any operations like that during this exercises.

Jeff Head said:

Several things:

1) It has never happened before, so it is historic.

2) It represents both in the invite and the acceptance a good faith effort by the tow largest economies and powers in the Pacific region to reach out to each other in a peaceful way ay a fairly high level.

3) It gives the personnel of both navies (and many other US allies) a chance to interact with one another both professionally and socially. This would be from the lower sailors up to fairly high command personnel. They will come to respect each other professionally and perhaps even make some contacts that will last for years.

All of these are most certainly a "big deal."

As to spying...both sides are very aware of the SIGINT capabilities of the other wand will take whatever appropriate measures while conducting exercises together to limit any critical exposure. There is apt to be very little gained in that regard.

As to defections? Very unlikely. The PLAN will make sure that the personnel on this exercise are very loyal, and that their opportunities for any one-on-one exposure with anything that might even faintly smell of any kind of such operations simply do not exist. It would be very unwise, and defeat the purpose of the whole thing for either side to try and conduct any operations like that during this exercises.

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You're probably right, Jeff. I'm a year older than you, so I guess a year more jaded too.

I'll continue playing skeptic. Why are sailor-to-sailor contacts significant? Do they make decisions on war? Isn't it possible personal enemies are made and contempt for the other side increased?

Excellent thread gent ..Excellent post!

Geographer said:

I'll continue playing skeptic. Why are sailor-to-sailor contacts significant? Do they make decisions on war? Isn't it possible personal enemies are made and contempt for the other side increased?

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You may be a skeptic all you want. This is what forums are all about...without reading your post above I've answered most of your queries.

As for war and contentious relationships. No one really wants that. However if the shooting starts it is any militarizes job to win the battle.

Geographer said:

I don't mean to rain on this parade but what's significant about China participating in RIMPAC? I know it's the first time but what's so great about the exercise? Is it a sparking opportunity for China to gather intelligence on other navies?

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What Jeff posted..excellent response.

RIMPAC is the largest mulit-national Naval exercise in the World.. Bar none.

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Twenty-two nations, 49 surface ships, 6 submarines, more than 200 aircraft and 25,000 personnel will participate. Units from Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Colombia, France, India, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, the People’s Republic of China, Peru, the Republic of Korea, the Republic of the Philippines, Singapore, Tonga, the United Kingdom and the United States will participate.

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When I served we always looked forward to hosting or operating with other nations. It builds friendships and helps you know what other nations are really capable of. Some sailors will cross-deck and get to work aboard other nations ships. Really up close and personal. It a great experience for all concerned. I never did that but we did have other nations sailors aboard ships I served aboard from time to time.

I really enjoyed working with the British. No language barrier! And they knew our gear very well. At the time British and US flight & survival gear was nearly identical.

I liked the Japanese and Koreans also.. they always wanted you to take them to the Navy exchange & off base to help them with their purchases. The Japanese sailors were extremely generous...

Geographer said:

I'll continue playing skeptic. Why are sailor-to-sailor contacts significant? Do they make decisions on war? Isn't it possible personal enemies are made and contempt for the other side increased?

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People are people,. Geo.

A lot of folks think that sailors and soldiers generally have some kind of huge antipathy for potential adversaries.

Generally they do not,. They want to do their job, serve their country, learn some good things in the process and get home. I have worked with such people most of my life...have family members who are such people, and know many people who have made a career of what I just described, Ask people like Popeye, or Kwaig, or others on this board about it.

It is not until people are wounded or killed...and particularly of atrocities are committed...that those types of feeling come into play.

This does not mean they will not follow orders, or particularly that they will not do whatever they must to defend their county and win should fighting start...but it does mean that they are thinking people, with families of their own, and that they are a lot more than rage-filled robots or something.

The more opportunity sailors and personnel in peace time have to rub shoulders, the more chance there is for them to continue realizing that their counterparts are people just like themselves.

Are there some who are filled with complete nationalistic fervor from the getgo? Of course there are. And thy may, despite the circumstance continue to have antipathy. But their officers and leaders are going to be trying to quell any such emotions because they all want to have their best foot forward.

But the vast majority of them will not have that problem anyway.

So, when their officers and staffs and line personnel get to participate in exercises like this, for the vast majority it is going to engender better relationships...which is precisely why the US invites nations other than only close allies to participate each year.

Blackstone said:

IMHO, other than kumbaya symbolism, PLAN participation in RIMPAC isn't a big deal. As for China taking the opportunity to spy as much as it can, was there ever any doubt of that? On the other hand, US could benefit by watching how PLAN spys and build dossiers on important PLAN officers. Who knows, maybe the sights and sounds of Hawaii could even co-opt PLAN personnel to defect.

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Why would they need to "spy" on each other when they've already so much info about each other's ship already and RIMPAC is not going to display ALL or ANY of the important exercises that are critical to each other's naval operations?

Why would a PLA sailor defect to Hawaii when Hainan Island is closer and more affordable?

Equation said:

Why would they need to "spy" on each other when they've already so much info about each other's ship already and RIMPAC is not going to display ALL or ANY of the important exercises that are critical to each other's naval operations?

Why would a PLA sailor defect to Hawaii when Hainan Island is closer and more affordable?

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More intel is better than less.

Because we want find out what TV shows they're pirating through the Yagi?