PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: J-15 Carrier Multirole Fighter thread

You know a thought just came to me...I served on three carriers that had smaller aircraft. the time to respot aircraft after a recovery was faster than on Nimitz or America. I think that has skewed my thinking.

What ever decision the PLAN makes reguarding it's air wing will be best for the PLAN CV programme.

Re: J-15 Carrier Multirole Fighter thread

Bltizo said:

But of course, as I've repeatedly said, there is no proof for whether Su-33 or any other fighter cannot or can take off from ski jumps with heavy payloads.

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Official Russian data says all : Su-33 empty weight 19600 kg , normal takeoff weight , 26000 kg , MTOW from carrier 29940 kg , MTOW from land 33000 kg , normal landing weight maximum landing weight 26000 kg ,normal landing weight 22400 kg , maximum internal fuel 9500 kg . Russians never attempted takeoff with theoretical maximum weight , and even if they did , with maximum internal fuel Su-33 could carry only 4-6 AAMs . As for China , best picture I have seen was 4x500kg bombs + 2xPL-8 . Yes , I think J-15 could carry more , but don't expect anything over 4-4.5 t from Liaoning .
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Bltizo said:

Why do you think mig-29K can suddenly take off with more payload from liaoning as opposed to the vikramditya?
What makes you say that the J-15 can only take off from liaoning with a payload of 4-4.5 tons?

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Liaoning has at least 20m longer deck then Vikramaditya ,and by my rough calculation that would amount to at least 10km/h larger exit speed , which on the other hand means that you could have 500-1000 kg bigger payload .

As for J-15/Su-33 you have official Russian data ,and you have operational practice . We have seen what Mig-29K could do , but so far (as far as I know) no Su-33/J-15 did takeoff from carrier with more then 3t payload . I/m certain they could go over 4t , but not much beyond that .

Bltizo said:

If both Mig-29K and J-15 are taking off from the same ski jump under similar conditions, then their payload should be proportional to their thrust and MTOW, and thus, the Mig-29K isn't somehow magically more "weight efficient" than the J-15. That is to say, the thrust to weight ratios of the mig and the flanker are both relatively equal, and neither their structural design or aerodynamics give us any reason to believe the Mig-29K is more "weight efficient".

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With new Sea Wasp engines T/W ratio on full afterburner is roughly equal . Mig-29K has slightly lower wing loading . Main advantage is difference between MTOW from carrier and MTOW on land . On Mig-29K this difference is very small for Kuznetsov/Liaoning . Unfortunately J-15/Su-33 could carry enormous payload , but not from these carriers . Therefore , currently they are underutilized . Su-33 is done deal . As for J-15 , new engines and longer deck would make miracles

Re: J-15 Carrier Multirole Fighter thread

assuming j15 is as heavy as su33 (which it may not be), there's 11,5 tons of fuel and equipment/ordenance to 29940 kg figure. So fully laden with fuel, it still has 2 tons for pilot and his equipment (100ish kg), oil and gun ammo (50ish kg), 5 pylons (150ish kg), two antiship missiles (1300ish kg), one bvr missile (200ish kg) and two self defense missiles (200ish kg). So max flanker range with a very decent antishipping capability.

or does one want to reduce the range by 15% or so? From 1500-ish km radius (for a high flying mission) to around 1300-ish km? That's still quite decent radius. Flying high is a problem? Okay, then last 300 km of ingress can be sea skimming. So the plane is down to 1100 km radius. Still pretty darn okay. And due to less fuel carried, one can carry a bit more than a ton of ordenance. Enough for, say, eight 250 kg bombs and several AA missiles.

All those are pretty decent numbers. Not world-beating, but decent, even for this day and age. Certainly far, FAR away from what poor su33 (and more recently j15) have been ridiculed for by those who think for themselves during the last 20 years.

And that's all for basic, 20 year old al31f engines. m1 variants may easely be in the pipeline, or similarly powerful ws10 variants.

Re: J-15 Carrier Multirole Fighter thread

Thunderchief, where did you get the 29.9 ton, supposed carrier take off figure comes from? I'd be interested to see a source.
The sukhoi manufacturers website mentions only 33 tons as MTOW and nothing about a carrier specific weight.




And I'd like to see the basis for your calculations on the Mig-29K taking off from liaoning versus vikramditya. For instance, is the liaoning's take off distance appreciably longer than vikramditya's?

Ultimately you don't address my point where I say that using the same ski jump and flight conditions, both Mig-29K and Su-33 should only be able to take off with a similar percentage of their MTOW. Unless there is substantial evidence to suggest that Mig-29Ks aerodynamics and/or structural design is inherently superior to the Su-33 in some way, this is the null hypothesis which should be held.

Re: J-15 Carrier Multirole Fighter thread

Well, since the Liaoning has been qualifying weapons loadout on the J-15, we do not need to speculate about certain weapon fits. We now have pictures of the Chinese doing it.

We do not know what fuel load they had when they did this, so it is difficult to talk about maxuimum take-off weights and the like. We have to presume that the "weapons," though probably inert, were actual training rounds and therefore accurate portrayals of the real thing in order to satisfy the weight, aerodynamic, and weight distribution calculations necessary to truly simulate the real thing.

So, let's look at a few pics:

Here's a couple of J-15s carrying two, wing-tip short range air to air missiles (Note: The second one is a special for Air Froce Brat 'cause I kow he would like that "top gun" look...hehehe! Notice the Liaoning off of his left shoulder, below.)


(Later) Oops! On closer examination, I see a longer range air to air missile poking out of the first picture on the centerline below the fueselage, so I have to presume there are two there...so that first pic really belongs in this next section.

Now let's look at a couple of pics with the J-15 carrying four air to air missiles. Both of these are two wing-tip short range air to air missiles and two, centerline mounted, longer range air to air missiles. Mounted below the fuselage.


Finally, the largest loadout I have seen to date (if anyone has pics of larger ones off of the Liaoning for J-15s, please let us know). These are J-15s off of the Liaoning with two wing-tip air to air missiles, and two wing pylon mounted air to surface missiles, which took off and landed on the Liaoning during some of the qualification testing we have seen.


There's probably been a lot more we have not seen...but we are getting a feel for the types of loadouts they are testing.

Believe me, any other carrier group, or any naval task force, would have to have great respect for the potential of a group of say, sixteen J-15s aircraft approaching with twelve of them carrying two LR ASMs each, and four of them fitted for air defense carrying four to six AAMs of various types. Such a group of aircraft could cause very serious harm to any task force if it were able to get through.

Re: J-15 Carrier Multirole Fighter thread

bd popeye said:

I remember that.. and I do not nor will I ever understand all the math involved. I just do not feel it can take off with a full load. Just my opinion.

Once again..I do not intend to argue with anyone. I'm just reflecting my experience in service aboard aircraft carriers.

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It is important to remember that the Su-33 (and by extension, the J-15 to an extent), while having a similar shape and engines, is heavier by about half a tonne than the Su-30; with a MTOW about 1.5 t less; so I think that alone already covers your intuitive concerns about why it can take off with a full load - the answer is, because its full load is really a fair bit less than it would have been had it been designed with a catapult in mind from the get-go - and given a catapult, it is possible that it could take off with more.

I think that should explain your feelings while reconciling what we are hearing about the J-15.

Re: J-15 Carrier Multirole Fighter thread

thunderchief said:

Official Russian data says all : Su-33 empty weight 19600 kg , normal takeoff weight , 26000 kg , MTOW from carrier 29940 kg , MTOW from land 33000 kg , normal landing weight maximum landing weight 26000 kg ,normal landing weight 22400 kg , maximum internal fuel 9500 kg . Russians never attempted takeoff with theoretical maximum weight , and even if they did , with maximum internal fuel Su-33 could carry only 4-6 AAMs . As for China , best picture I have seen was 4x500kg bombs + 2xPL-8 . Yes , I think J-15 could carry more , but don't expect anything over 4-4.5 t from Liaoning .

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Oddly enough, this particular bit mostly agrees with what we know; the buzz suggests, and I quote:

(20131104开贴)歼15 9吨内油还可以挂5吨弹药。 对海 鹰击83K 5枚 两格斗弹 3.7吨左右。 对地 500公斤激光制导炸弹6枚或者憋版JDMA或者KD88A 两枚格斗弹 3.5吨 空战8枚PL12C加4枚PL10 3吨。这些是195米起飞点挂载能力。
1 . 2 号起飞点 7.5吨内油 6枚霹雳12C 4枚霹雳10 2吨多一点。。。。。
这是飞出来的数据。
至于9吨内油 5吨弹药挂载，只飞了两三次。。。具体什么挂载 先不说了

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I'll give a personal translation which ought to be better than the machine one:

J-15, with 9 tonnes of internal fuel, can take off with 5 tonnes of munitions. Anti-sea, 5 x YJ-83K and 2 x SRAAM, 3.7 tonnes. Anti-ground 6x 500kg LGB or 6 x 500 kg Chinese-JDAM or KD-88A, plus 2 x SRAAM, 3.5 tonnes. FAD, 8 x PL-12C + 4 PL-10, 3 tonnes. This is the sort of load you can get from the 195 m take-off point.

At take off points 1 and 2, 7.5 tonnes of internal fuel, 6 x PL-12C + 4 PL-10, a bit over 2 tonnes...

This is what we got from flying the birds.

As for 9 tonnes of internal fuel and 5 tonnes of munitions, we've only done it 2-3 times. I won't elaborate on the exact loadout

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Re: J-15 Carrier Multirole Fighter thread

Bltizo said:

Thunderchief, where did you get the 29.9 ton, supposed carrier take off figure comes from? I'd be interested to see a source.
The sukhoi manufacturers website mentions only 33 tons as MTOW and nothing about a carrier specific weight.

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Russian wiki , with books as reference :

Bltizo said:

And I'd like to see the basis for your calculations on the Mig-29K taking off from liaoning versus vikramditya. For instance, is the liaoning's take off distance appreciably longer than vikramditya's?

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Liaoning's longest takeoff point is somewhere around 230 m , and Vikramaditya's around 200 m . For the sake of the argument we could reduce that difference to 20m . Assuming Mig-29K takeoff speed of 250km/h at 200m , that would give acceleration of 11.9 m/s*s . Those extra 20 m would then yield more then 10km/h increase in speed . Now , lift rises with square of velocity , therefore if Mig-29K with 250km/h could takeoff with weight of 18500 kg , with 260km/h it could takeoff with 20000 kg . These are very rough calculations , but I think you catch my drift

Bltizo said:

Ultimately you don't address my point where I say that using the same ski jump and flight conditions, both Mig-29K and Su-33 should only be able to take off with a similar percentage of their MTOW. Unless there is substantial evidence to suggest that Mig-29Ks aerodynamics and/or structural design is inherently superior to the Su-33 in some way, this is the null hypothesis which should be held.

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There are structural differences , Mig-29K is not scaled-down copy of Su-33 . Mig-29K wings are proportionally bigger ,and Su-33 has proportionally bigger payload , but only when taking-off from land .

Re: J-15 Carrier Multirole Fighter thread

Video of J-15 qualifying weapons loadouts ( bombs at 0:18 , missiles at 0:24 )

[video=youtube;ak7MEWbMCmU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak7MEWbMCmU&html5=1[/video]

Re: J-15 Carrier Multirole Fighter thread

thunderchief said:

Russian wiki , with books as reference :

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

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The only place I see the 29940 kg figure is at the bottom, the "specs" list, and that is normal take off weight with full fuel, not maximum take off weight, which is listed as 33 tons.

And on the subject of wikipedia, the english wikipedia says:

Even using the station which afforded shortest take-off run of only 105m, Su-33 can take off easily with full fuel and weapons load.

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And its citation, is:
Gordon, Yefim (2001). Flankers, The New Generation. Midland Publishing. p. 91. ISBN 1 85780 121 0.

So if anyone has a copy of this book, perhaps we can settle it once and for all.

Liaoning's longest takeoff point is somewhere around 230 m , and Vikramaditya's around 200 m . For the sake of the argument we could reduce that difference to 20m . Assuming Mig-29K takeoff speed of 250km/h at 200m , that would give acceleration of 11.9 m/s*s . Those extra 20 m would then yield more then 10km/h increase in speed . Now , lift rises with square of velocity , therefore if Mig-29K with 250km/h could takeoff with weight of 18500 kg , with 260km/h it could takeoff with 20000 kg . These are very rough calculations , but I think you catch my drift

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Actually, Liaoning's longest take off point is 195m and Vikramditya's longest is 180m I believe.

I concede that if Liaoning's take off point is longer than Vicky's, then yes, Mig-29K would have a greater take off weight on the longer take off.

However, this takes us back to the original problem, which is whether Mig-29K and Su-33 taking off from an equal distance ski jump would somehow mean the Mig-29K can take off with a proportionally higher take off weight.

(Btw, note I say "take off weight" rather than "payload," because "take off weight" includes internal fuel, which Su-33 has much more space for than Mig-29K, which contributes to its MTOW. Measuring take off weight is the only fair way to compare the two, imo)

There are structural differences , Mig-29K is not scaled-down copy of Su-33 . Mig-29K wings are proportionally bigger, and Su-33 has proportionally bigger payload , but only when taking-off from land .

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Mig-29K isn't a scaled down copy of Su-33, I agree. However, do we have anything to suggest that it is aerodynamically different enough to yield so great of a performance difference as you suggest?

And what do you mean by "proportionally bigger"? Proportional to what? To length, to MTOW?
Furthermore, both Mig-29K and Su-33 use their body for lift as well, so simply looking at their wing area isn't wholly representative. Unfortunately it is difficult to eyeball overall lift.