PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: AWACS for future chinese carrier

ffInfra_Man99, You are certainly entitled your opinion. I do not know if the Ospreys problems have been all solved.

But I do know, once again, the USN/USMC & USAF have certified the Osprey safe for flight. Despite it's long history of all sorts of trouble.

As I type this another detatchment of USMC Ospreys is being rotated to Iraq to relieve the detatchment already deployed..ff

I really think this is off topic and I apoligize for carring this on. I will end my part of this ff discussion right here.

Ideal PLAN carrier escorts?

As is the initial CBG will probably consist of 1 carrier and several escorts, made up of:

052C Air Defense DDG
051C Air Defense DDG
054A ASW/GP/MR-Air Defense FFG
Sov' GP/MR-Air Defense DDG
SSNs

But the question is, what escorts should China build?

get designing and discussing... 054B? O52D?

Re: Ideal PLAN carrier escorts?

If you have a carrier, the question is where it will go or be ported? I can't see where you can put anywhere along China's east coast facing the Eastern China sea. It would have to be either in the North or Bohai sea, probably at Lushun port (former Port Arthur in history) near Dalien or in the South China sea at Hainan. Hong Kong and Shenzhen are the other ports in the south that can hold a carrier. In which case the rest of the CBVG would consist of the fleet it becomes a part of.

North Sea Fleet (Qingdao, Lushun)

2 051C
2 052 (112 and 113)
2 future 054A

South Sea Fleet (Hainan, Hong Kong or Shenzhen)

2 052C
2 052B
2 054A
1 051B

If they ever make 052D it would most probably go to the south fleet too. The 071 LPD has gone to the SSF too. Both fleets also have nuclear subs. All the Sovs are in the East Sea Fleet.

Re: Ideal PLAN carrier escorts?

so you don't think that the induction of a carrier would cause the PLAN to redeploy ships between fleets to provide the optimum escort mix?

But beyond existing ship types, what mix is "ideal"?

Re: Ideal PLAN carrier escorts?

I forgot to add the 051B to the SSF. Now I did.

Anyway, I notice that the PLAN seldom relocates their ships from fleet to fleet if ever. If they do, the pennant number changes to reflect that change. I suspect that the number 114 for example, was reserved should the 167 Shenzhen be relocated back to the NSF to join its 051C siblings. The ship is still with the SSF though, sporting the 167 number.

I suspect that the SSF or South Seas Fleet is being remodeled into a blue seas fleet or CBVG component. It is the fleet I think the first operational Chinese carrier would go to. Not only do you have a number of ports big enough, but it also represents a vital economic region with Hong Kong and trade coming from Europe, the Middle East and Africa. This location would enable the CBVG to respond to a blockade threat in the Malaccas strait to protect Chinese oil supplies coming from the Middle East.

I don't think the Sovs would make a healthy addition to a future Chinese CBVG. I think it represents the old Soviet doctrine and represents more of a sea denial philosophy rather than a fleet protection or power projection philosophy. The 051C has issues as AD ships. Although capable, their field of view of engagement is limited and so is the number of targets they can handle. They need protection for themselves as much as they can protect other ships.

In which case I think what the PLAN is planning now---putting all the best potential CBVG support ships in the SSF---is right. This includes the 052C AD destroyers, the 052B multirole DDGs, and the 054A frigates. And if the 052D comes out, its likely to fall into this fleet too, as well as more future 054A and 054B. The 051B 167 Shenzhen can be turned into an ASW vessel, its a unique vessel in the PLAN to have two ASW helos on board. Also a number of nuclear submarines including the improved 091 Han and the 093 Shang class is already in the area. The shiny new 071 LPD, now 998, has gone to the SSF, clearly a sign that the SSF is intended as blue sea power projection fleet. I have not checked where the modern replenishment ships went but I bet they went to the SSF too.

Addendum:

I've rechecked the replenishment ships, and the biggest and most modern, pennant 885, 887 and 888 are all located in the SSF too.

Re: Ideal PLAN carrier escorts?

crobato said:

Addendum:

I've rechecked the replenishment ships, and the biggest and most modern, pennant 885, 887 and 888 are all located in the SSF too.

Click to expand...

That is the most conclusive evidence that the SSF is being prepared to host the PLAN's first carrier. In addition to all the other reasons you pointed out, the SSF is within easy range of Taiwan and geographically farther from US forces on Guam and Okinawa.

As for what ships the PLAN should focus on building in order to equip carrier battlegroups in the future, a possible 052D would get my vote because a carrier battlegroup really needs two things-ASW and the ability to intercept incoming missles. The 054 is quite capable as an ASW escort but anti-missle technology is evolving so fast that the PLAN could need a whole new class to provide its carrier with the best possible protection.

Re: Ideal PLAN carrier escorts?

SSF is actually closest to Guam though farther from Okinawa. Still, the Philippines is between the South China Seas and Guam, but Guam does not have a US carrier home ported there.

Let's review the lineup in the SSF, and one can see its quite an impressive build up for a blue seas power projection fleet.

052C - DDG 170 The two best AD ships in the PLAN so far.
052C - DDG 171

052B - DDG 168 Recently went to Europe.
052B - DDG 169

051B - DDG 167 This ship has the most experience in the PLAN going around the world.

054A - FFG 570 AD frigates.
054A - FFG 568
054A - FFG 569?

There are also a number of Jiangweis.

071 - LPD 998

Replenishment ships

888 Latest replenishment ship

887 These two are two of the three newest and most modern replenishment ships in the PLAN. The other one, 886, is located in the ESF. During exercises, 887 has managed to replenish both a 052B and a 052C simultaneously.

885 Actually the largest ship ever in the PLAN, this just happens to be a tanker, a key element in a blue sea fleet.

Submarines

At least one or two 091G Improved Han, at least two 093 Shang SSN. One or two 094 Jin class SSBN.

One Song-Yuan flotilla (Three Song 039G1 and the original Yuan 039A)

One Kilo 636EM flotilla (These are the latest Kilos that can fire the Klub missiles).

Re: Ideal PLAN carrier escorts?

I'm pretty sure SSF also has 2 of the 4 replenishment ships between 881-884. There is another scenario and that would be China creates a new fleet for the power project. But either way, NSF faces Japan and ESF faces Taiwan, so neither are ideal for a carrier.

Re: Ideal PLAN carrier escorts?

IMO western carrier battle group philosophy centers around the carrier aircraft as primary offensive weapons. Thus, the escorts are basically ASW and AAW squadrons.

Russian designs differ as they depend on surface ships to deliver the offensive supersonic missiles. The aircraft are used for CAP.

The PLAN is in an unique situation where they have a Russian carrier but not the weapons suite that it was intended.

Also, if the Varyag w/Su-33 is deployed to the South China Sea, it'd find itself in a region where other countries (Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia) are equipped with very similar Sukhoi aircraft & munitions.

Re: Ideal PLAN carrier escorts?

for varyag two 054A FFG plus a couple of submarines enough for a training fleet. If expect anything bigger would be during crisis or else burning cash during peace time.