Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread
Okay...
First little about the chinese shipdevelopment.
Prior 1990 china had two types of major warship hulls, the Jianghu/Jiangdong hull and the Luda hull. The first was basicly the strengtend hull of pr. 50 (Soviet Riga clas) and the later was the pr. 41 (Tallinn class) hull. These both hulls represented late 40's soviet shipdesigning which was somewhat behind of the western shipdesign in those days. Copying and reproducing the Riga hull and envolving it to the Jianghu class took almoust twenty years. China needed huge ammount of time to simple strenghtening and enlarging of quite simple and small warship hull. With Luda class they started from the blueprints of the orginal soviet ship and adopted it as it was (what comes to the hull and below the main deck, superstructure arragment was altered slightly). First unit was launched 1966, 16 years after the soviet prototype ship, but the first chinese unit was not completed untill 1972. It took 8 years to build single Destroyer. (Note that the soviet ship, Neustrashimy took 5 years to build and this considered way too long period even for the soviet shipbuilding capabilities. corresponding destroyers of that day, like Kotlins took only 3 years to build,) The building time of this already aging destroyers shortened to 4 years when chinese learned how to make them.
But never the less no improvements in the shipdesign sector emerged for next following decades. Jianghu class was modified and some progress went on with it (which eventually led to Jiangwei class) but not in the destroyer sector. This is ofcourse quite understandable given the historical facts and the state in which china was in those days. A backward developing country, tough fast developing and still building up its infrastructure.
But untill 1990, China had its major surface combatants all based to soviet imidiate post-WWII era (which was somewhat equal to western wwII era) shipdesigns with great lack in the very basis of modern naval warfare sectors.
The year 1990 was the turning point with the laying down of the first chinese own major warship hull, the Luhu (052) class. It was from its design standpoint huge improvement to the Ludas as it represented, at least form outwards look a modern surface combatant. This was all thanks to the western nations with their pre-1989 warming up relations with the PRC. China won the frigate deal to Thailand and received much help form the germans to design the similary modern Naresuan class frigates (pr. 025T) using the modular shipbuilding methods that were introducted with the MEKO designs. (Same methods were used with the Luhu class as well)
But both of these new chinese ships, The two 052 class DDGs and the two 025T FFGs had huge proplems when you looked bit deeper. Naresuan clas had some of its comparments unaccesble without first coming to the main deck. First of the Luhus had its engine comparament few inches too small to fit the LM2500 gas turbines there and had to be returned to the shipyard before engine instalation. Naresuan class had poor damage control and was not with other parst as well even near the standarts of western warships.
After 1989 the relations with the west ended and so did the sudden boost in chinese ship designs. Luhu class for example was pretty much designed around its propulsion arragment and as the western Gas turbines weren't availble, chinese weren't able to duplicated the class. The follower, Luhai (pr. 051B) was despite its modern look, a step back in the chinese shipdevelopment. Like the pr. number suggest, its basicly enlargened Luda class with its old (and trouplesom) pressured fired steam plants. It was like a proplel fighter in the jet age.
When comming to the 21st century, shift from nedgelence in naval matters to the realization that growing super power needs modern fleet is clearly seen in the efforst that china had made in the area. The Luhu (052) class finally had its decendands with the 052B/C classes. The same hull design was strenghted with the slightly inferior ukrainian gas turbines which powered the seccond orginal 052 as well. With larger hulls the new destroyers were bit too underpowered and this can be seen for example in the top speed of the new ships. But the illfamous 051B had its followeres too in the forms of the two 051C class ships. In fact the very existence of these ships tells alot of the current capabilityes of chinese shipdesigns. They are clearly not able to design completely new ships, but are forced to use older hulls to compensate the ever growing need of the rising power of china.
Only the 054A class is finally showing healthy singhs of chinese shipdesigns as it seems to be the first of the new era chinese warships that has entered serial production. With destoryers which the china needs, we need to wait for the 055 (or what ever it will be named) to see such a progress, the laters were test and trial classes, like tricicles in which you first learn how to bike...
You are right, china is moving up a ladder, step by step. But unlike you said, one ladder isent one type of ship. One step equals the state of the shipdesigning. Sofar china has over the step of making a ship and designing a ship. They are still crumbling with the step of making succesfull and viable type of ships (and partially succeded in that). But the ladder is long and building an aircraft carrier is in the near end....and china is far from it.
I'm a civil engineer soon myself (one year less to go) so you don't need to point out those things to me. In fact the little engineer in me is the one that cries out loudest for against this 93,000 tonner. The same little engineer in me wants to point out that while you may knwo how to do that, it doesen't mean you can do this...for example I can design a simple road or street with little traffic from scrats, but I damn well know that I'm not knowlidgable enough (nor experienced) to design a motorway...
Its silly to argue over internet based article which can be early aprils fools joke for all we know. I'm not saying that china cannot design aircraft carriers, but that they are not in the point of doing such thing now or in the near future. They need to launch the Varyag first to get even familiar with the idea of jetplanes over the sea (and without that it's inpossiple to know how to design a carrier) and only after then strat design one of their own. And that takes time, and its not ready in 2020....
Okay...
First little about the chinese shipdevelopment.
Prior 1990 china had two types of major warship hulls, the Jianghu/Jiangdong hull and the Luda hull. The first was basicly the strengtend hull of pr. 50 (Soviet Riga clas) and the later was the pr. 41 (Tallinn class) hull. These both hulls represented late 40's soviet shipdesigning which was somewhat behind of the western shipdesign in those days. Copying and reproducing the Riga hull and envolving it to the Jianghu class took almoust twenty years. China needed huge ammount of time to simple strenghtening and enlarging of quite simple and small warship hull. With Luda class they started from the blueprints of the orginal soviet ship and adopted it as it was (what comes to the hull and below the main deck, superstructure arragment was altered slightly). First unit was launched 1966, 16 years after the soviet prototype ship, but the first chinese unit was not completed untill 1972. It took 8 years to build single Destroyer. (Note that the soviet ship, Neustrashimy took 5 years to build and this considered way too long period even for the soviet shipbuilding capabilities. corresponding destroyers of that day, like Kotlins took only 3 years to build,) The building time of this already aging destroyers shortened to 4 years when chinese learned how to make them.
But never the less no improvements in the shipdesign sector emerged for next following decades. Jianghu class was modified and some progress went on with it (which eventually led to Jiangwei class) but not in the destroyer sector. This is ofcourse quite understandable given the historical facts and the state in which china was in those days. A backward developing country, tough fast developing and still building up its infrastructure.
But untill 1990, China had its major surface combatants all based to soviet imidiate post-WWII era (which was somewhat equal to western wwII era) shipdesigns with great lack in the very basis of modern naval warfare sectors.
The year 1990 was the turning point with the laying down of the first chinese own major warship hull, the Luhu (052) class. It was from its design standpoint huge improvement to the Ludas as it represented, at least form outwards look a modern surface combatant. This was all thanks to the western nations with their pre-1989 warming up relations with the PRC. China won the frigate deal to Thailand and received much help form the germans to design the similary modern Naresuan class frigates (pr. 025T) using the modular shipbuilding methods that were introducted with the MEKO designs. (Same methods were used with the Luhu class as well)
But both of these new chinese ships, The two 052 class DDGs and the two 025T FFGs had huge proplems when you looked bit deeper. Naresuan clas had some of its comparments unaccesble without first coming to the main deck. First of the Luhus had its engine comparament few inches too small to fit the LM2500 gas turbines there and had to be returned to the shipyard before engine instalation. Naresuan class had poor damage control and was not with other parst as well even near the standarts of western warships.
After 1989 the relations with the west ended and so did the sudden boost in chinese ship designs. Luhu class for example was pretty much designed around its propulsion arragment and as the western Gas turbines weren't availble, chinese weren't able to duplicated the class. The follower, Luhai (pr. 051B) was despite its modern look, a step back in the chinese shipdevelopment. Like the pr. number suggest, its basicly enlargened Luda class with its old (and trouplesom) pressured fired steam plants. It was like a proplel fighter in the jet age.
When comming to the 21st century, shift from nedgelence in naval matters to the realization that growing super power needs modern fleet is clearly seen in the efforst that china had made in the area. The Luhu (052) class finally had its decendands with the 052B/C classes. The same hull design was strenghted with the slightly inferior ukrainian gas turbines which powered the seccond orginal 052 as well. With larger hulls the new destroyers were bit too underpowered and this can be seen for example in the top speed of the new ships. But the illfamous 051B had its followeres too in the forms of the two 051C class ships. In fact the very existence of these ships tells alot of the current capabilityes of chinese shipdesigns. They are clearly not able to design completely new ships, but are forced to use older hulls to compensate the ever growing need of the rising power of china.
Only the 054A class is finally showing healthy singhs of chinese shipdesigns as it seems to be the first of the new era chinese warships that has entered serial production. With destoryers which the china needs, we need to wait for the 055 (or what ever it will be named) to see such a progress, the laters were test and trial classes, like tricicles in which you first learn how to bike...
You are right, china is moving up a ladder, step by step. But unlike you said, one ladder isent one type of ship. One step equals the state of the shipdesigning. Sofar china has over the step of making a ship and designing a ship. They are still crumbling with the step of making succesfull and viable type of ships (and partially succeded in that). But the ladder is long and building an aircraft carrier is in the near end....and china is far from it.
I'm a civil engineer soon myself (one year less to go) so you don't need to point out those things to me. In fact the little engineer in me is the one that cries out loudest for against this 93,000 tonner. The same little engineer in me wants to point out that while you may knwo how to do that, it doesen't mean you can do this...for example I can design a simple road or street with little traffic from scrats, but I damn well know that I'm not knowlidgable enough (nor experienced) to design a motorway...
Its silly to argue over internet based article which can be early aprils fools joke for all we know. I'm not saying that china cannot design aircraft carriers, but that they are not in the point of doing such thing now or in the near future. They need to launch the Varyag first to get even familiar with the idea of jetplanes over the sea (and without that it's inpossiple to know how to design a carrier) and only after then strat design one of their own. And that takes time, and its not ready in 2020....
ff , but in the 50s when building the US interstate system, the engineers did not have to go from scratch. They were able to study and benefit from the design of a system already built in the 1930s...the German Autobahn system.
