PLAN Carrier Construction

The crew has to learn CATOBAR operation also on a Ulyanovsk design!
I think it is to expensive to build a senseless carrier-design only to have the possibility to say "oh, we are not able to handle that f***ing cats, lets use that ramp at the bow".

They now operate STOBAR - thats okey to learn how a carrier works! How a CSG will work...
The most difficult thing for the pilots is the landing - there it doesn't matter if you land on ah STOBAR or on a CATOBAR carrier.... also the escorts doens't care about the way how the carrier is getting his aircrafts into air...

To train a fully qualified "STOBAR-carrier-pilot" to take off from a CATOBAR carrier sounds not very difficult to me!
Also the crew should manage that once they have made experience with Liaoning.

I think China should switch direct to a real CATOBAR design... based on the Liaoning with flattened bow...
Liaoning is quite good to train some basics to new crews and pilots i think... but the operational "full-service" carrier will be CATOBAR - REAL CATOBAR and not a mixture like Ulyanovsk...

if the next CV indeed carry CATOBAR,by now, some unit of J-15 's forward gear wil already incorporate launch bar.but to date I do not seen it-yet.

hardware said:

if the next CV indeed carry CATOBAR,by now, some unit of J-15 's forward gear wil already incorporate launch bar.but to date I do not seen it-yet.

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That is why STOBAR with catapult at angle deck is most likely the variant to be the first domestic made carrier. A lots of member could not see the rational and even claim that shows low level of confidence on catapult. I almost laugh off from my chair...

Whats your point?
CATOBAR not possible because of the lack of cats, so lets build ah STOBAR with cats at the angled deck?
You also need cats for the "STOBAR with cats"!
So the point is: are cats available or not... of not, the next carrier will be a STOBAR like Liaoning.
If there are cats available: Why put that ugly ramp on the bow instead of additional cats??

Xian said:

Whats your point?
CATOBAR not possible because of the lack of cats, so lets build ah STOBAR with cats at the angled deck?
You also need cats for the "STOBAR with cats"!
So the point is: are cats available or not... of not, the next carrier will be a STOBAR like Liaoning.
If there are cats available: Why put that ugly ramp on the bow instead of additional cats??

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There you still have the Liaoning. You want plane to take off from CV-16 and CV-001. Yes, the J-15 can install catapult gear at the expense of heavy front landing gears and make taking off from Liaoning with lesser payload.

Plus ramp has no mechanism, it will not break down or not working unlike catapult. If neccessary just to send fighter jet up with air defense load, I think the ramp will do the job easily.

If you install 4 Cats like the USN does, what must happen to make it inpossible to operate the carrier?
Sure - if you have only one you could run into troubles...
But the french and brazils don't care about that even with 2 cats!
Did you ever here about ah CATOBAR carrier unable to launch any aircraft becaus a breakdown of ALL his cats?

With the ramp an two cats it is only possible to launch heavy load aircrafts from 2 starting positions - with real CATOBAR you have 4! You can bring up your strike-fighters faster then a STOBAR - even if one of your cats is out of order! ^^

So i realy can't se any reason to place a ramp at the bow instead of additional cats.
The only reason for a ramp is if you don't have cats. But if you have it?

Xian said:

If you install 4 Cats like the USN does, what must happen to make it inpossible to operate the carrier?
Sure - if you have only one you could run into troubles...
But the french and brazils don't care about that even with 2 cats!
Did you ever here about ah CATOBAR carrier unable to launch any aircraft becaus a breakdown of ALL his cats?

With the ramp an two cats it is only possible to launch heavy load aircrafts from 2 starting positions - with real CATOBAR you have 4! You can bring up your strike-fighters faster then a STOBAR - even if one of your cats is out of order! ^^

So i realy can't se any reason to place a ramp at the bow instead of additional cats.
The only reason for a ramp is if you don't have cats. But if you have it?

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With ramp, fighter jet can still launch into skies abet with lesser payload but with air defense in mind. Small payload with air to air defense missile carry and 3/4 fuel is enough to be launch with ramp. So catapult breaks down. Ramp wouldn't.

You have to think about maintenance.. there's no need to maintain a ramp, so you have less maintenance to do with only 2 catapult to worry about. And not all mission required heavy load. I can bet its faster to send jet using ramp up the skies than catapult.

The biggest difference in maintenance is cats or no cats...
But 2 or 4 cats? i think it is not that great issue....

Once again - sure, the aircrafts can take off from the ramp with less payload... BUT they ONLY can take off with low payload!
The ramp is a limitation for air-ops... thats a fact!
And 4 cats can launch aircrafts faster then 2 cats and 1 ramp becaus both, the two cats at the angled deck end up at the same point and the two "runways" over the ramp ends up at the same point of the deck.
So the sequence how fast the jets can take off from the ramp will be lower than the sequence with 2 completely indipendent cats - they bouth can launch aircrafts within seconds and have not to care about the fact that both will end up at the same point of the deck! On a ramp you have to wait a bit until the first jet is far away anough to launch the next one safely because it will end up direct behind the first (aerodynamic interferences!).
With cats you don't have that problem...

So, a ramp makes no sense to me in case that cats are available...
The fact that no navy with cats is using ramps parallel to cats also shows that i am not completely wrong i think!

To make it clear: I do not say that STOBAR is bullsh**!
A Carrier like Liaoning makes sense.... if you have no cats or you dont want cats because of maintenance and additional space and infrastructure needed for the operation of cats, then you can use a STOBAR configuration... with limitations for sure, but it works and is a good and cheap alternative to cats.
But if you already use cats on your carrier, so you have to maintain cats on that ship, you need all the systems araound the cat and you need the space on your ship for the hole system, why limitate your carrier with a ramp instead of 2 additional cats? That doesn't make sense to me...

Xian said:

Why is that such an issue?
I understand that it is to difficult do rebuild a STOBAR Carrier to a CATOBAR Carrier...
But what is the issue to REDESIGN a STOBAR to a CATOBAR before construction begins?
It is work... sure... but is it such an issue that they go fore a concept without any operational aspects and only because the bow needs no redesign?

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It's not an issue of technology or even training. It is simply planning. I do not believe the next carrier will have a flat deck because I do not think that PLAN intends to redesign the basic hull of Kunetsov (Liaoning) class so the ramp stays. PLAN is looking decades into the future.. They are not only looking at just 'Liaoning # 2' they are looking at carrier #3 which most likely WILL be a CATOBAR.

Why go totally crazy on #2 when you know by #3 you'll have a full deck CATOBAR? and by #5 most likely a 100K ton CVN?
I am 99.9% sure PLAN planners are looking at carrier # 2, 3, 4, maybe 5 even now.

Unlike most nations, the PLAN of the future will not be limited to a single or even dual carriers and have to make do with what they can.. China and PLAN's ambitious expansion allows them the luxury to have a mixed of both STOBAR and CATOBAR as they progressively 'graduate' into a CV and then a CVN. No need to rush into things now and put everything into one basket at such an early stage.

so, when PLAN is heading for CATOBAR - why should they introduce STOBAR carriers?
Sure, Liaoning is a special case - it was available and the hull was finished. Its good anough to train crews in carrier ops...
But if the cats are available for the second carrier, why should they stay at STOBAR?

I think it depends on how soon cats will be available...
I am sure work on cats is in progress and the PLAN knows how soon they will be available.
If they will be available in the next few years i dont think that they will start the construction if a STOBAR carrier!
Only if they see no possibility that cats are available within the next years they will build a second STOBAR...