PLAN Anti-ship/surface missiles

plawolf

Lieutenant General
One problem, what keeps the canisters from tilting?
The idea is similar to mine which is basically a double hull structure but you'll need a lot of braces to keep the canister in place with your system and not very practical during reloading the canister with the braces in place.

All the "bracing" structures would be pretty much built into the design. It will likely be an entire support frame that is installed into the VLS prior to loading hot launched missiles.

It will be exactly like loading missiles into a MK41, only you have a smaller box inside the VLS cell where the missile canisters slot in.

For cold launch missiles, the internal frame can be removed, allowing bigger diameter canister (thus missiles) to be loaded into the same VLS cell.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Here's how it probably works the braces are welded on the hot launch tubes and are not fixed inside the tube itself since it would be hazardous to crawl down the tube to remove the braces each time you want to switch from hot to cold launch, this is basically the same as a double hull structure as I had postulated in my earlier post. I still do not understand why you want walls within a tube though. When I saw the Mk41 it's just a one file of empty space without the canisters, once loaded the canisters braces each other.

In any case this also means as Bltlzo had stated that the hot launch missile diameter would be considerably smaller then a cold launch missile.
It also suggests that the length of the system would probably not be elongated since you need space at the bottom to connect piping for compressed air to initiate a cold launch.(Or develop a larger ship)
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Here's how it probably works the braces are welded on the hot launch tubes and are not fixed inside the tube itself since it would be hazardous to crawl down the tube to remove the braces each time you want to switch from hot to cold launch, this is basically the same as a double hull structure as I had postulated in my earlier post.

Makes little to now sense to do it that way.

Since the frames are just reinforced scaffolding, its the simplest thing to tie it to a crane and just lift it out/slot it in neat as you please. You just need a simple locking bolt system at the bottom of the cell for the legs of the scaffolding to be secured to (which would be an automatic mechanical mechanism, with easy access via the deck below the VLS if anything breaks or needs maintenance checking).

All basic engineering principles any first year engineering student should be easily able to think of.

In any case this also means as Bltlzo had stated that the hot launch missile diameter would be considerably smaller then a cold launch missile.

Not necessarily. The frame does not need to be that thick, since it will be made up of solid steal, and since each cell is its own individual venting system, nothing needs to survive prolonged, repeat exposure to launch exhaust, as a shared vent would be, so that further lowers the strengthening requirements.

The same principle applies to the vent space. Its only a single cell, it needs to vent, the exhaust gasses are split into 4 channels, rather than being focused into a single channel. Thus, the width only needs to be a fraction of the width of the Mk41 to spread the pressure to the same levels as what the MK41 would produce.

And the width could be reduced further, because unlike the MK41, the cells are all individually vented, so do not need to withstand multiple full blast launches in quick succession like the MK41 has to (with a quad launched missile package, since the quad packed missiles are going to be a lot smaller than the full size missiles so less exhaust).

It also suggests that the length of the system would probably not be elongated since you need space at the bottom to connect piping for compressed air to initiate a cold launch.(Or develop a larger ship)

All PLAN cold launch VLS missiles are full enclosed capsules, which includes all the compressed air bottles and launch mechanisms similar to the PLA's HQ9 missile system. It makes absolutely no sense that they would do away with that neat and simple, readily available solution and take a quantum leap backwards to needing hoses and pipes to the connected inside the VLS cell for each missile.

Are you going out of your way to come up with engineering solutions to make things far more complicated and difficult than necessary?
 

Blitzo

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Here's how it probably works the braces are welded on the hot launch tubes and are not fixed inside the tube itself since it would be hazardous to crawl down the tube to remove the braces each time you want to switch from hot to cold launch, this is basically the same as a double hull structure as I had postulated in my earlier post. I still do not understand why you want walls within a tube though. When I saw the Mk41 it's just a one file of empty space without the canisters, once loaded the canisters braces each other.

Well there are obviously a variety of ways to go about it. Your way sounds more complicated. Plawolf's is more in line with what I was imagining. No reason for anyone to have to crawl into a cell.


In any case this also means as Bltlzo had stated that the hot launch missile diameter would be considerably smaller then a cold launch missile.

Well a hot launch missile definitely won't be using the full 850mm diameter and full length of a cell, that's for sure, but that has pretty much been understood from day one. How much smaller a missile is, depends on how well they design their hot launch arrangement arrangement and there are obviously ways to get more usable volume in the cell with better designs meaning larger missiles.


It also suggests that the length of the system would probably not be elongated since you need space at the bottom to connect piping for compressed air to initiate a cold launch.(Or develop a larger ship)

Like plawolf said, each cold launch canister has its own self contained cold launch mechanism, at the bottom. It will mean that the actual missile length itself will be slightly less than the full length of the cell, but given how much wider and (more importantly) longer the Chinese Navy's common VLS is compared to its contemporaries, the largest size of missile that they can fire is likely still somewhat bigger if not significantly bigger than what other VLSs can fire.
 

Blitzo

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Seeing as this thread is kind of active anyway, I thought I'd create a gif of the CCL VLS on test ship 891, using the CCL hot launch mechanism to fire what is speculated to be YJ-18. We've had pictures and stills of it before, obviously, but a gif is a far more accessible and easy to view medium.
Relevant to our discussion is how the exhaust is vented in the periphery of the single cell around the missile canister from which the missile emerges.


F7q3H33.gif
 

Blitzo

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how do we know this is YJ-12 and not something else. Is there a label somewhere?

If we really want to be pedantic about it, then we should definitely acknowledge that official Chinese military designations are likely different to the common ones we use and take for granted.

But given what we know of the missile currently called YJ-12 and what it looks like, yes I think I'm right in saying the missiles in the picture in question are almost definitely the missile we call YJ-12, seen in previous photos such as loaded on the H-6G test plane where the missile literally has "YJ-12" emblazoned on itself.
And given what we know of YJ-18 (such as its configuration, flight profile, and how it likely is still in a stage of advanced development rather than entering early service) and the fact that we do not have reliable pictures of YJ-18, I think there's enough evidence to say the missile in the photo likely is not YJ-18.


In other words, given the present likely consensus we have it's not unreasonable to say with a degree of confidence that the missile in question is YJ-12, or at the very least it is the same missile we've been calling YJ-12 as the last few years.
 

tphuang

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If we really want to be pedantic about it, then we should definitely acknowledge that official Chinese military designations are likely different to the common ones we use and take for granted.

But given what we know of the missile currently called YJ-12 and what it looks like, yes I think I'm right in saying the missiles in the picture in question are almost definitely the missile we call YJ-12, seen in previous photos such as loaded on the H-6G test plane where the missile literally has "YJ-12" emblazoned on itself.
And given what we know of YJ-18 (such as its configuration, flight profile, and how it likely is still in a stage of advanced development rather than entering early service) and the fact that we do not have reliable pictures of YJ-18, I think there's enough evidence to say the missile in the photo likely is not YJ-18.


In other words, given the present likely consensus we have it's not unreasonable to say with a degree of confidence that the missile in question is YJ-12, or at the very least it is the same missile we've been calling YJ-12 as the last few years.
actually, most of the Chinese military designations from missiles are quite well known. I think this could be YJ-12 or YJ-18. We do not have really reliable pictures of YJ-12 either, except that those are what we think are YJ-12. Either way, no reason to dismiss by78.
 

Blitzo

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actually, most of the Chinese military designations from missiles are quite well known. I think this could be YJ-12 or YJ-18. We do not have really reliable pictures of YJ-12 either, except that those are what we think are YJ-12. Either way, no reason to dismiss by78.

You've seen these pictures below, right? And how they have "YJ-12" written on them? You asked for a label, and there literally is a label on the pictures below, the first two of which are actual physical missiles with the second picture being a YJ-12 aboard a H-6 test platform.
I consider these pictures to be far more reliable, consistent and with better coverage than the single possible picture/gif we may have of YJ-18 being launched from 891.

S7CIJ80.jpg


0pSoWJk.jpg


G0htwAW.jpg



And do you also acknowledge that YJ-18 is meant to be a missile with a similar configuration to 3M-54? The missiles in the picture at the parade obviously look nothing like subsonic cruise phase AShMs with terminal supersonic phase; their configuration suggests supersonic flight for the entire duration.

With all the current photo evidence we have for YJ-12 and YJ-18 respectively, and with the current consensus of what kinds of missiles YJ-12 and YJ-18 are meant to be, I think it is not an unjustified statement to say that the missiles in by78's photo are almost certainly YJ-12s.
If it turns out that YJ-18 is really just a YJ-12 with an additional booster stage or maybe if YJ-18 is a ship launched YJ-12, or maybe if the PLA decided to troll us and rename YJ-12 to YJ-18 or something, then sure one could be correct in saying the missiles in the photo may be YJ-18, but with the entirety of the information we have at present I don't see how one can make that claim...
 
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