PLAN Anti-ship/surface missiles

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Was listening through a podcast from Shilao on China's efforts countering US carriers. They mentioned that China's anti-carrier/anti-access strategy follows the Soviet Roadmap, except that they are much better at finding target, keeping track of target and able to attack with much more lethal weapons (as one would expect given the 30 year gap since the end of the Cold War).

They talked a lot about WZ-7/WZ-8 as part of the process in finding carrier groups and then keeping track of them. Compared it to the Soviet efforts in finding carriers. It makes a huge difference. In that case, they'd find the target, relay it to the command and wait hours for Tu-22M and/or Tu-95 to be loaded with AShM and then fly over. The carrier group would be long gone from the original location by the time Soviet bombers can actually get into position.

WZ-7 is considered to be really old tech, since it uses turbojet engine, have limited range (compared to RQ-4) and is not stealthy. WZ-8 is considered the much superior platform for acquiring target. They said PLAAF had really high requirements: low cost, high speed, LO signature and be able to be launched from H-6. Based on the requirements, the only option realistic option to quickly develop this is with rocket engines. WZ-8 can fly over quickly to confirm targeting (from satellite or something else) and also verify the outcome of attacks.

They also talked about hypersonic/ballistic missiles. ground based ones have no restrictions in terms of size, so they can built much larger and have huge warhead. However, they suffer from always coming from fixed locations, so they are easy to pick up. DF-21D was needed back in the early 2010s due to the need to have some platform available. Now, DF-26 is favored over DF-21D as ASBM of choice due to their newer design and superior capabilities.

They talked extensively about the importance of 055. The 055s can have large portion of its VLS as the 9m variant. There are limitation to its warhead size and range due to the restrictions from 850mm VLS and 9m deep cell. They brought up AGM-183A as a comparison, since it only has 150 lb warhead with its 5000 lb weight because it has to be carried by air, so it has size constraint (650mm diameter and 5.6m in length). One should expect that hypersonic AShM from 055 also would also have smaller warhead than the land based variant. As an example, DF-21 is 10.7 m long with 1.4m diameter and carries 600 kg warhead. VLS launched one would need newer fuel material, more efficient engine and smaller warhead to reach similar range. But it would allow attacks to be conducted from different angles and be launched in a hurry. They consider 055 as China's Ticoderonga and Kirov. It will need to be able to escort carriers and providing land attack, AAW/ABM defense and be a huge part of its anti-ship fire power. A smaller warhead missile is unlikely to sink any large ships (even at hypersonic velocity and steep dropping angle), but could achieve soft kills which make them vulnerable to further attacks from YJ-18 and YJ-12 (or even YJ-83). Expect the missiles to target not only carriers but also AB and other large/important ships.

They also mentioned a lot about how YJ-18 is the ideal anti-ship missile up until ASBM became available. They claimed that YJ-18 increased the attack area of Chinese AShM by 360 times (I couldn't believe this number when they said it), since it has longer range and 360 degrees targeting capability. I wouldn't be surprised if YJ-18 have well over 500 km range (maybe close to 1000 km). They said it probably has the most destructive power of any Chinese AShM when combining the terminal speed with the size of the warhead.

For those worried about land attack, they mentioned there is LACM version of YJ-18 called YJ-18A. As a whole, 055 sounded like the ultimate weapon that PLAN wanted in terms of all the things it can do. 052D would be limited in the number of deep VLS that it can hold.

Then, they talked about H-6K/J. Apparently when H-6K was first developed, they didn't have the ISR capability to allow H-6K to attack targets outside of air defense zones. Now they do. They mentioned that they did extensive work with Russians to miniaturize Moskits, so that they can launch these 4 YJ-12s from H-6J. YJ-12s also have significantly increased ranges (probably 500+ km) than Moskits.

They also talked about air defense saturation. Back in the days, Tu-95 could only guide 4 Anti-ship missiles. So the breadth of Russian attack was not as impressive as US Navy prepared for. I think the implication is that China with its various C4ISR assets (like KJ500) can coordinate and guide a greater number of missiles against moving naval targets.
 

by78

General
Improved YJ-83 with dual infrared and radar seekers. I've never seen that black section on the body before. I wonder what changes it might indicate.

52237745084_a306199dc4_k.jpg
52237464426_adb146ea43_k.jpg
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Improved YJ-83 with dual infrared and radar seekers. I've never seen that black section on the body before. I wonder what changes it might indicate.

52237745084_a306199dc4_k.jpg
52237464426_adb146ea43_k.jpg


Black section could be radio frequency band pass material. Which means radio wave can pass through. This can mean it has a datalink there, or satellite guidance like Beidou or on the bottom a radar altimeter or all three.

I am guessing the missile has a land attack option.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
I am referring to the JH-7 missile and the 056 one.

Are CM-802 and YJ-83 not in the same family of missiles?

Pardon my ignorance if I’m mistaken.

Same family, CM is the export name, but they plan to get rid of these names in favor of YJ-83E because its way easier to explain what it is. Buyers want what the PLA is using and not some untried, export only weapon.

The canted nose appears to be using a digital infrared imaging seeker. What it does is to take the target image in infrared, match its pixel outline to a database of images, and once identified, homes in to it. This mainly meant against stationary or slow moving targets. This is a precision land strike weapon. This makes sense since a converted ASM for land strike is cheaper than a large dedicated cruise missile, and you can make more of these to a given budget.

The other nose is a dual active radar guided and infrared homing missile. The dome still has the traditional active guidance radar, and the infrared homing system is similar to what AAMs use. There's heat, it homes into that heat source. So if the missile is jammed by ECM or confused by chaff, it can revert to infrared mode and home in to what's hot on the target ship, and that's usually the funnel area, and when it does that, it will nail the engines. Infrared homing and infrared imaging should not be confused as the same.

Some ships are aware and prepared for infrared seeking in antiship missiles so they cover the funnel with an outer structure that allows ventilation to come in and cool the inner funnels. The outer housing also intends to hide the funnels. These design elements are evident in PLAN vessels. You can also add flares to your decoy system.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Same family, CM is the export name, but they plan to get rid of these names in favor of YJ-83E because its way easier to explain what it is. Buyers want what the PLA is using and not some untried, export only weapon.

The canted nose appears to be using a digital infrared imaging seeker. What it does is to take the target image in infrared, match its pixel outline to a database of images, and once identified, homes in to it. This mainly meant against stationary or slow moving targets. This is a precision land strike weapon. This makes sense since a converted ASM for land strike is cheaper than a large dedicated cruise missile, and you can make more of these to a given budget.

The other nose is a dual active radar guided and infrared homing missile. The dome still has the traditional active guidance radar, and the infrared homing system is similar to what AAMs use. There's heat, it homes into that heat source. So if the missile is jammed by ECM or confused by chaff, it can revert to infrared mode and home in to what's hot on the target ship, and that's usually the funnel area, and when it does that, it will nail the engines. Infrared homing and infrared imaging should not be confused as the same.

Some ships are aware and prepared for infrared seeking in antiship missiles so they cover the funnel with an outer structure that allows ventilation to come in and cool the inner funnels. The outer housing also intends to hide the funnels. These design elements are evident in PLAN vessels. You can also add flares to your decoy system.

Funny, for whatever reason it did not occur to me that the CM-802B missile was single seeker only.

Now my other question is, aren’t regular IR seekers “passé”? Aren’t most new missiles using IIR seekers (NSM for example)? Why develop a new version of a missile with “old tech”?
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Funny, for whatever reason it did not occur to me that the CM-802B missile was single seeker only.

Now my other question is, aren’t regular IR seekers “passé”? Aren’t most new missiles using IIR seekers (NSM for example)? Why develop a new version of a missile with “old tech”?

More difficult to fit space in for an IIR seeker in a dual seeker arrangement, due to more complex electronics. In a dual seeker arrangement, the active radar seeker is the primary seeker and the IR seeker works as a backup if the main seeker is jammed. This dual mode seeker however does not work against land targets.
 
Top