PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

CMP

Captain
Registered Member
You are aware before I did say that, but not every dual use infrastructure is a legitimate target, if Taiwan uses every single one and every one if destroyed creates a massive advantage for China then yes, but if not then you can’t. All I’m saying is you can’t just do whatever you want in AR.
Dual use infrastructure is automatically a legitimate military target if its destruction offers a definite military advantage. If Taiwan's military relies on the infrastructure for logistics (food, fuel, and supply transport) to feed their troops, replenish their munitions/arms, power their equipment, or fuel their equipment, then it's a legitimate target by the standards of the geneva convention. By that definition, rail, bridges, seaports, airports, highways, and roads are easily legitimate targets unless Taiwan's military exclusively uses military air transport for food, fuel, supplies. If they use civilian air cargo transport, airports, or runways for any of those purposes, then civilian airports and civilian cargo planes become legitimate targets. Likewise, electrical, water, and communications/internet infrastructure is automatically a legitimate military target unless the Taiwan military exclusively uses their own electrical generating infra, water infra, and communications network (not piggybacking off of civilian networks).
 
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Zhejiang

Junior Member
Registered Member
Dual use infrastructure is automatically a legitimate military target if its destruction offers a definite military advantage. If Taiwan's military relies on the infrastructure for logistics (food, fuel, and supply transport) to feed their troops, replenish their munitions/arms, power their equipment, or fuel their equipment, then it's a legitimate target by the standards of the geneva convention. By that definition, rail, ports, and road are easily legitimate targets unless Taiwan's military exclusively uses military air transport for food, fuel, supplies. If they use civilian air cargo transport, airports, or runways for any of those purposes, then civilian airports and civilian cargo planes become legitimate targets. Likewise, electrical, water, and communications/internet infrastructure is automatically a legitimate military target unless the Taiwan military exclusively uses their own electrical generating infra, water infra, and communications network (not piggybacking off of civilian networks).
well I guess we’re going to agree to disagree. I’m not going to agree with you and your not going to agree with me.
 

CMP

Captain
Registered Member
well I guess we’re going to agree to disagree. I’m not going to agree with you and your not going to agree with me.
You don't need to agree with me. You just need to read the Geneva Conventions
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, which I know you won't do. That's because you're just using the name of the Geneva Conventions purely as a rhetorical device.
 

Zhejiang

Junior Member
Registered Member
You don't need to agree with me. You just need to read the Geneva Conventions
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, which I know you won't do. That's because you're just using the name of the Geneva Conventions purely as a rhetorical device.
I have read the Geneva convention and dual use or military use doesn’t make something automatically a legitimate target.
 

CMP

Captain
Registered Member
I have read the Geneva convention and dual use or military use doesn’t make something automatically a legitimate target.
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You're actually just openly lying now. There's no explicit mention of civilian infrastructure aside from hospitals/medical zones. Any mentions of water refer to obligations of supplying water to PRISONERS of war. There's also no explicit mentions of electricity or electrical infrastructure. Any mentions of communications also do not bar the targeting of communications infrastructure.

The only civilian infrastructure that is explicitly protected are medical/hospital zones, and only if they do not get utilized by or for the benefit of the military, according to the literal text of the geneva conventions. Once they do, they become legitimate targets.

In short, you just completely fabricated what you wanted to attribute to the geneva conventions and then used it as a rhetorical device to define your own made-up standards as to what the PLA can or cannot do. Making up fake shit, pretending its real, and attributing it to a formal document. Sounds like a Westoid troll/bot if there ever was one. If it were up to me, your lying and bad faith arguments would be a banneable offense.

@siegecrossbow

Does making up fake facts and attributing it to a formal document, then using the name of that formal document as a rhetorical device constitute bad behavior and/or bad faith argument by the rules of this forum? Is fabrication of fake facts and misattribution a banneable offense?
 
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Zhejiang

Junior Member
Registered Member
You're actually just openly lying now. There's no explicit mention of civilian infrastructure aside from hospitals/medical zones. Any mentions of water refer to obligations of supplying water to PRISONERS of war. There's also no explicit mentions of electricity or electrical infrastructure. Any mentions of communications also do not bar the targeting of communications infrastructure.

The only civilian infrastructure that is explicitly protected are medical/hospital zones, and only if they do not get utilized by or for the benefit of the military, according to the literal text of the geneva conventions. Once they do, they become legitimate targets.

In short, you just completely fabricated what you wanted to attribute to the geneva conventions and then used it as a rhetorical device to define your own made-up standards as to what the PLA can or cannot do. Sounds like a Westoid troll/bot if there ever was one. If it were up to me, your lying and bad faith arguments would be a banneable offense.
If you’re only focusing on the 1949 Geneva convention then yes but there is more added later in 1977 that is also part of the convention. That mentions more than what the 49 one does, also not everything to be a war crime has to be mentioned in the Geneva convention.
 

tokenanalyst

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Jesus bleeping Cristo!

As Napoleon once exclaimed to his subordinate general: If you're going to take Vienna, take Vienna!

War is inherently cruel, barbaric, and brutal—as it has always been throughout human history.

If we’re going to artificially impose strategic and operational constraints on how the PLA must conduct its war against Taiwan—while the other side is free to deploy and employ novel ideas without any such limits—then why commit your sons and daughters to reunify by force at all?

Your intentions may be noble, and in principle I agree with them, but in reality these constraints are a guaranteed war-defeating measure. They are certain to cause more mayhem and destruction on both sides—especially to the very civilians you are understandably trying to protect.
Depends, my guess at the IF there is war, hopefully things can be resolved peacefully, no to the thanks of Western stooges who want to destroy that island, but I digress. IF there is war. My guess is that the goal of PLA is to take Taiwan as intact as possible, with main targets being mostly military facilities. So that lives of the people who live there can continue as normal as possible. BUT if become a grinding war, then Taiwan is doomed, is beyond over, the economy, the semiconductor industry, their way of life, everything is over. Worse than Ukraine, hell for years. The more blood China sacrifice the worst the terms and conditions are going to be.
 

CMP

Captain
Registered Member
If you’re only focusing on the 1949 Geneva convention then yes but there is more added later in 1977 that is also part of the convention. That mentions more than what the 49 one does, also not everything to be a war crime has to be mentioned in the Geneva convention.
Just as a final good faith effort to put a final nail in this really stupid coffin that should never be reopened again:

1977 adds
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and
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The applicable section you're referring to is part 2 and 3 from article 54 of
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In short, electrical, most railways, most roads, airports, seaports, airport runways, and internet/communications infrastructure are always fully legitimate targets no matter what. Water pipelines, water sanitation infrastructure, sources of water, food production, and stores of food are not. If you want to get nit-picky beyond the defined text by arguing that some roads still must be left intact to ensure food and water can be transported to civilian populations, then technically PLA could leave only one main road intact for each city. If domestic food production is insufficient, then PLA could leave one seaport of the island intact. If the enemy military then decides that they will use that road or seaport in direct support of military action, OR MONOPOLIZE ITS USE TO SOLELY FEED AND SUPPLY THE MILITARY, then PLA is within their right to temporarily disable that road or seaport until the enemy military has been destroyed or dislodged from their local positions. PLA could then take control of that road or seaport, repair it to a minimal baseline of operational status, strictly control its use to enable food and water to flow only to civilians, and still remain fully in-line with geneva conventions.

I feel pretty confident that most members of this forum would consider that completely reasonable even in a time of war.

Art 54. Protection of objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population​

2. It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, such as food-stuffs, agricultural areas for the production of food-stuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works, for the specific purpose of denying them for their sustenance value to the civilian population or to the adverse Party, whatever the motive, whether in order to starve out civilians, to cause them to move away, or for any other motive.

3. The prohibitions in paragraph 2 shall not apply to such of the objects covered by it as are used by an adverse Party: (a) as sustenance solely for the members of its armed forces; or (b) if not as sustenance, then in direct support of military action, provided, however, that in no event shall actions against these objects be taken which may be expected to leave the civilian population with such inadequate food or water as to cause its starvation or force its movement.


In other words, even the 1977 additions to the geneva conventions do not entitle Taiwan's civilian populations to electricity, unconstrained mass/public/vehicular transit, communications infrastructure (the original interpretation being phone, and a modern interpretation being cell phone signal, phone landline access, or internet). So long as there continues to be enough access to food, water, and shelter that there is no starvation or forced relocation, then that is the bottom line.

The key giveaway that you were arguing in bad faith is that you were unwilling to post the specific and official text that specified what you were asserting. And now that somebody finally has, it now makes sense why you never did that. The text itself clearly articulates the limits and conditions and it turns out you were arguing in favor of something that goes very far beyond that. Now, if you had just argued that China should go way above and beyond the geneva conventions, that would be one thing. Instead you outright lied by pretending that your own extreme and fabricated definition is what is defined in the geneva conventions when it clearly is not.

In short, to stay aligned with even the 1977 additions to the geneva conventions, China only needs to make sure they don't INTENTIONALLY starve or displace the population through EXCESSIVE water, food, and shelter deprivation. That is much more in line with what I expected of the document to begin with rather than your argument that near-total protection of almost all civilian infrastructure is the only acceptable standard (with only the most strict and extreme exceptions).
 
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