PLA Small arms

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
Do you prefer they made their own 7.62 round?
The 7.62 x 51 is mostly a Frankenstein. The US Army of 1945 still had weird requirements like being able to take down a horse from 1000 yards, being able to take down columns of soldiers from 800 yards, etc. Literally Napoleonic war stuff but from sniper ranges. They basically wanted .30-06 performance. The resulting bullet was a shorter and slower .30-06. It had far too much focus on weight and diameter rather than speed because of weird long-range lethality requirements thus it had far too much recoil.

In Vietnam, it became apparent that it is a massive overkill both in terms of recoil and weight. The US transitioned to the 5.56 mm. The Soviet 7.62 x 39 was better in that regard. It was sufficiently lethal since killing horses from 1000 yards wasn't important, and was controllable. But it had problems with magazine capacity and external ballistics because of its low slenderness and speed. The Soviets developed 5.45 x 39 mm. The US kept the 7.62 x 51 in service as a machine gun round since the 5.56 wasn't enough and there was a lot of 7.62 in the inventory. Soviets never ditched away the 7.62 x 54.

I think China's 5.8 is a very reasonable cartridge. Somewhat stronger but tapered for high magazine capacity and low pressure for controllability. China then decided to adopt something between 5.8 and 12.7. They went for the 7.62 mm NATO, probably because of risk aversion. I think they could adopt something more powerful since they were not trying to shoehorn the .30-06 to assault rifle use. And a lot of vehicles are armored against 7.62.

Weight is a smaller concern in machine gun rounds and a lot more recoil is acceptable. Magazine capacity is not a problem for the obvious reason either. In machine gun rounds energy retention is the most important thing since it determines range and penetration. So high sectional density is the most important thing. Considering these, rumors about the development of 8.6 mm Lapua/Norma Magnum machine guns both in China and the USA don't surprise me. They simply make more sense. 7.62 mm NATO is a weird caliber overall. It is what you get when you want to kill horses 1000 yards away using assault rifles.

Note: I can also understand why 7.62 wasn't adopted for DMR in China. The same reason. Too much recoil. The 5.8 would definitely be lethal at 600-700 meters. It would be easier to hit with because of its high velocity and higher slenderness. Not to mention other benefits like the possibility of controlled auto fire, smaller rifle, logistical simplicity...
 

Aniah

Senior Member
Registered Member
The 7.62 x 51 is mostly a Frankenstein. The US Army of 1945 still had weird requirements like being able to take down a horse from 1000 yards, being able to take down columns of soldiers from 800 yards, etc. Literally Napoleonic war stuff but from sniper ranges. They basically wanted .30-06 performance. The resulting bullet was a shorter and slower .30-06. It had far too much focus on weight and diameter rather than speed because of weird long-range lethality requirements thus it had far too much recoil.

In Vietnam, it became apparent that it is a massive overkill both in terms of recoil and weight. The US transitioned to the 5.56 mm. The Soviet 7.62 x 39 was better in that regard. It was sufficiently lethal since killing horses from 1000 yards wasn't important, and was controllable. But it had problems with magazine capacity and external ballistics because of its low slenderness and speed. The Soviets developed 5.45 x 39 mm. The US kept the 7.62 x 51 in service as a machine gun round since the 5.56 wasn't enough and there was a lot of 7.62 in the inventory. Soviets never ditched away the 7.62 x 54.

I think China's 5.8 is a very reasonable cartridge. Somewhat stronger but tapered for high magazine capacity and low pressure for controllability. China then decided to adopt something between 5.8 and 12.7. They went for the 7.62 mm NATO, probably because of risk aversion. I think they could adopt something more powerful since they were not trying to shoehorn the .30-06 to assault rifle use. And a lot of vehicles are armored against 7.62.

Weight is a smaller concern in machine gun rounds and a lot more recoil is acceptable. Magazine capacity is not a problem for the obvious reason either. In machine gun rounds energy retention is the most important thing since it determines range and penetration. So high sectional density is the most important thing. Considering these, rumors about the development of 8.6 mm Lapua/Norma Magnum machine guns both in China and the USA don't surprise me. They simply make more sense. 7.62 mm NATO is a weird caliber overall. It is what you get when you want to kill horses 1000 yards away using assault rifles.

Note: I can also understand why 7.62 wasn't adopted for DMR in China. The same reason. Too much recoil. The 5.8 would definitely be lethal at 600-700 meters. It would be easier to hit with because of its high velocity and higher slenderness. Not to mention other benefits like the possibility of controlled auto fire, smaller rifle, logistical simplicity...
I'm out of the loop on this but there are rumors of a new high-caliber MG?
 

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
I'm out of the loop on this but there are rumors of a new high-caliber MG?
For the USA yes it is certain. For China, we have those classic internet rumors. Nothing substantial yet. The QJY-201 is very recent after all. But we all know the PLA did adopt 8.6 x 70 for snipers.

Though China has a very modern 12.7 mm machine gun like the QJZ-171. They may just mass issue that gun. The 7.62 x 51 is becoming outdated as even light infantry is getting vehicles that are resistant to it. Most NATO light infantry vehicles were unarmored so far.
 

Aniah

Senior Member
Registered Member
For the USA yes it is certain. For China, we have those classic internet rumors. Nothing substantial yet. The QJY-201 is very recent after all. But we all know the PLA did adopt 8.6 x 70 for snipers.

Though China has a very modern 12.7 mm machine gun like the QJZ-171. They may just mass issue that gun. The 7.62 x 51 is becoming outdated as even light infantry is getting vehicles that are resistant to it. Most NATO light infantry vehicles were unarmored so far.
Once China starts standardizing exoskeletons in 2035, we can give all troops a para version of the medium MG. That or at least the para version of the 5.8 mg with 200 round box mags. That would be one hellova sight to behold.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
The 7.62 x 51 is mostly a Frankenstein. The US Army of 1945 still had weird requirements like being able to take down a horse from 1000 yards, being able to take down columns of soldiers from 800 yards, etc. Literally Napoleonic war stuff but from sniper ranges. They basically wanted .30-06 performance. The resulting bullet was a shorter and slower .30-06. It had far too much focus on weight and diameter rather than speed because of weird long-range lethality requirements thus it had far too much recoil.
I doubt killing a Horse was a requirement for the 7.62x51mm round. It’s direct ancestor seems more likely. 7.62x51mm was designed as a replacement for the 7.62x63mm round aka 30.06. 30.06 adopted in 1906 would have been the right era for such a requirement. That time period still had widespread horse mounted cavalry in combat. Farther at that time ballistic tests were conducted using animal carcasses mostly Pigs but Horses wouldn’t have been unimaginable.
The doctrine of that era not just in the US but globally also favored the idea of infantry combat at extended ranges. Not “Napoleonic” persay as the US civil War and Mexican American had proven the Massed rank formations popular in European conflicts of the 1700-early 1800s was suicidal. The advent of grape shot and the early Machine guns had made that evident as any colonial army fighting indigenous armies often found themselves in one sided conflicts once such technologies were employed. After the First World War it became clear infantry weren’t able to fire at extreme ranges and fighting was more close quarters. Open field formations were again proven suicidal as artillery, mortar bombs, Grenades and machine guns turned advances into slaughter. Trenches though uncomfortable and disgusting saved the defenders.

7.62x51mm was designed to match the 30.06 (7.62x63mm) yet be more friendly to the emerging magazine feed selective fire weapons technology that was deemed the way forward. Attempts had been made at converting M1 Garand to fire from a detachable box magazine but they were issue prone and attempts at a full auto M1 were even worse. This was happening even as US Army is fighting in World war 2. Even before the war it was realized that 30.06 was overkill for most troops the M1 Garand had been adopted in 1936, in 1938 the U.S. Army started developing the M1 Carbine in .30 carbine a weapon optimized for shorter range and lighter weight. The Army Ordinance board throughout World war 2 was working on improving M1 Garand trying to lighten its weight, change to a box magazine but they felt they had to keep 30.06 as they were always fighting two problems. First they wanted commonality between MGs and rifles. Second between wars the US Department of war ended up with huge stocks of surplus equipment and no budget for new.

After Korea, came back to it. The M2 Carbine has been found lack luster as a stand in for a new rifle The Ordinance board of the US Army looking back at its attempts at an improved Garand concluded a new cartridge was needed to make it feasible. They studied shorter 30.06 based designs but eventually modified a .300 savage a commercial cartridge to take the bullet of a 30.06 creating 7.62x51mm.
To fire this they aimed to develop a family of weapons. An evolved M1 Garand rifle derivative that would become the T44 and eventually the M14 replacing Garand. A fully automatic version to replace the M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle The Stillborn M15, a belt fed universal machine gun with inspiration from the MG and FG42 the M60 to replace the M1919.
This was all happening in the 1950s.The US pushed standardization as during the last two world wars the US had by virtue of being more or less untouched by the conflict been the only industrial base European Allies could rely on. As such it would have been easier to establish a commonality of the same ammunition in the event of conflict.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
In Vietnam, it became apparent that it is a massive overkill both in terms of recoil and weight. The US transitioned to the 5.56 mm. The Soviet 7.62 x 39 was better in that regard. It was sufficiently lethal since killing horses from 1000 yards wasn't important, and was controllable. But it had problems with magazine capacity and external ballistics because of its low slenderness and speed. The Soviets developed 5.45 x 39 mm. The US kept the 7.62 x 51 in service as a machine gun round since the 5.56 wasn't enough and there was a lot of 7.62 in the inventory. Soviets never ditched away the 7.62 x 54.
This is how it’s normally restated with the AR15 emerging from nowhere as if Eugene Stoner appeared from a time machine or something however it’s not so clear cut.
In the same period of the 1950s the Us Army did trial alternatives to the T44(M14) including the (T48) FN FAL and hand built Armalite AR10 all still in 7.62x51mm. This was 1957.
As this is happening inside the same Army Ordinance board the US Army is studying a number of alternative technologies. Among them was Project Salvo. Salvo was looking into duplex rounds, flechetee and multiple barrels, crazy stuff they were highly interested in a .224 and .25 cartridges. Though they didn’t come to anything they were looking at materials to which is likely where interest in Armalite come. Salvo had concluded that a lighter weight, rapid fire highly accurate rifle firing a small caliber high velocity round was the way forward.
In 1958 after the AR10 had been dropped from the M14 trails Stoner and Armalite were contracted by the army to rebuild the AR10 to chamber one of the cartridges that had been developed from this. .223 Remington.
Stoner and co set to work and developed the AR15. It was submitted to trials by the Army in 1959 whom apparently like it, but it was vetoed by General Taylor whom wanted a universal cartridge.
However the Armalite Fairchild company was in financial difficulties and sold the rights to Colt Manufacturing in 1959.
Colt modified the design for manufacture and offered it as a product. They focused sales on Asia, making first sales to Malaya.
The USAF got interested in 1960 after seeing the rifle and impressed with it SAC commander Curtis “Big Cigar” Lemay ordered them for security forces around SAC bases. The Army was still experimenting with them with favorable results.significant improvements on accuracy and the ability to get soldier to expert marksmen badges vs M14.
Yet an internal conflict inside the DOD was emerging as the USAF wanted them and elements of the Army wanted them but Army command didn’t. Made even worse by the fact that aspects of the DOD and Army had started fielding them in Vietnam. Where they were praised. In 1963 the decision was made and the Army adopted AR15 as the new rifle.
However at this point the .223 cartridge had only really been made for a rifle not a MG. So the US maintained the M60. The closest to a .223 Remington Mg was developed by Stoner and the brain trust of Armalite who were then working for Cadillac Gage in the early 1960s the Stoner 63 modular weapons system. However that system was highly highly sophisticated and modular. Though it would see deployment in Vietnam it would not be as successful. Though attempts would be made to adopt M16 into LMGs they also we’re pretty much a dead end. It wasn’t until after the adoption of the Belgian SS109 5.56x45mm in the 1980s that a successful 5.56x45mm LMG the FN Minimi would appear. The M14 though never completely left the field during Vietnam it was found that though good for a general purpose rifle a Marksman/Sharpshooter or Sniper rifle was needed. The USMC has retained some Sniper capabilities with Marines building Sniper rifles off of Commercial hunting rifles. The Army created the XM21 from M14 rifles. 7.62x51mm has remained and is still in wide issue globally particularly in nations whose armies expect to face longer range engagements. India, Pakistan, Turkey, Iran all maintain it prominently for potential conflicts in high altitude areas where the longer range aspects can be advantageous. A number of other nations have looked to it as a DMR rifle caliber or as they deem it better suited to engaging body armor. Though vehicles maybe increasingly armored against it the 7.62x51mm can still be cost effective well being anti personnel effective for a moderate investment vs even armored infantry.

The Soviets 7.62x39mm round and AK series came from a different set of doctrine and experience both were developed starting in the Second World War. The M43 cartridge was developed for the RPD in 1943 and production started in 1944. Followed by the SKS in 1945 Then AK47 would come soon after in 1946. The Soviets based the AK doctrine after seeing the German use of the STG44 and it’s forerunners. Based on close quarters battles in urban environments. It started its official role in the Soviet army as a Submachine gun counterpart to the SKS. Eventually the AK superseded the SKS. Like the US though the Soviets concluded that they needed a heavier MG and Sharpshooter rifle along with these so the PK and SVD were created retaining the 7.62x54R dating back to 1891.
the Soviets eventually adopted the 5.45x39mm but where the US got a major weight savings from 9 pound M14 to 7 pound M16A1. The AR used a lot of new materials that the AK never got aluminum receivers and polymer furniture. The AK got its own polymers furniture down the line but the receiver is all steel. The AK series is to this day an World war 2 rifle with modern bits bolted on. M14 was the same AR15 is a space age rifle. The Russians never really phased out 7.62x39mm and even their newest supposed replacement for the AKM and AK74 are in both calibre

The PLA started off on its 5.8mm far later than any of the above cartridges. Long long after the now over century old 7.62x54R or 30.06. Decades after .30 carbine, 7.62x51mm, .25,.224,.223 and 5.45x39mm. The closest in era would be the 5.56x45mm NATO SS109. As such the 5.8x42mm was developed from lessons learned by these cartridges. The Chinese built their own doctrines around it. Though it seems that as they pregressed they found that some of the aspects were not as effective as they would like. The latest arms shows clearly show that the 5.8x28mm is a dead end as far as the PLA is concerned. They redrafted their 5.8x42mm for a third generation in the QBZ191 carbine as they decided to follow the M4 configuration for their replacement of the QBZ95 series.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The Soviets had their own assault rifles starting from the Fedorov Avtomat rifle designed way back in Tsarist Russia.
The 7.62x54mm round as in their rifles proved to be unusable in a fully automatic rifle because of too much recoil. So Fedorov used the Japanese Arisaka round at 6.5x50mm. The Russians had bought quite a lot of Japanese rifles and they had lots of ammunition for them available. Later in the WW2 period the Soviets tried again with automatic rifles with the rifle round, failed with the AVS-36 and AVT-40, so they needed a new intermediate round and they made the 7.62x39mm because it was much easier to manufacture using existing ammunition production lines. It is as simple as that.
 
Last edited:

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
I doubt killing a Horse was a requirement for the 7.62x51mm round.
It absolutely was. That is still ridiculed by some people, especially the British who had to move away from their arguably much more sensible 7 mm British cartridge. The insistence on a universal cartridge and very high long-range lethality were what led to 7.62 NATO.
The latest arms shows clearly show that the 5.8x28mm is a dead end as far as the PLA is concerned. They redrafted their 5.8x42mm for a third generation in the QBZ191 carbine as they decided to follow the M4 configuration for their replacement of the QBZ95 series.
Did you mean 5.8 x 21 mm? China has no 5.8 x 28 in service. 5.8 x 21 mm is still in use as a pistol round in the PLA. Pistols in general are mostly a formality for soldiers. Most soldiers don't even carry them if they are not ordered to do so. The 5.7 x 28 mm has become the standard NATO PDW cartridge. PDWs are indeed mostly a dead end. Modern vehicles are really spacious and there are great compact assault rifles on the market. Personnel like vehicle drivers, logistics personnel, and artillery troops just get normal carbines nowadays
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
It absolutely was. That is still ridiculed by some people, especially the British who had to move away from their arguably much more sensible 7 mm British cartridge. The insistence on a universal cartridge and very high long-range lethality were what led to 7.62 NATO.

Did you mean 5.8 x 21 mm? China has no 5.8 x 28 in service. 5.8 x 21 mm is still in use as a pistol round in the PLA. Pistols in general are mostly a formality for soldiers. Most soldiers don't even carry them if they are not ordered to do so. The 5.7 x 28 mm has become the standard NATO PDW cartridge. PDWs are indeed mostly a dead end. Modern vehicles are really spacious and there are great compact assault rifles on the market. Personnel like vehicle drivers, logistics personnel, and artillery troops just get normal carbines nowadays
I would like to see a citation on that.
Again if we were talking 30.06 fine but 7.62 NATO sounds more like one of those anecdotes from a keyboard warrior of the modern era.
Next yes a number of nations looked at alternative calibers and offered them for standardization however in the end it was 7.62x51mm. If you look at the doctrines of the time they believed in longer range infantry fighting. The Machine gun doctrine also fits this. We still see it today. The NATO 5.56x45mm adoption still maintains a longer range capability than what is generally accepted in its Soviet counterparts.

Yes I meant that caliber 5.8x21mm, I made an gaffe. If we look at the more recent arms shows we see increasingly less and less 5.8x21mm and a shift to 9x19mm from the latest SMG to the Pistols. If they felt the 5.8mm was up to snuff why didn’t we see it in the latest kit?

Only few nations actually adopted the P90. Most of the time it’s either a weapon given to very very selective units or used by police agencies. P90 has arguably been used more to defend against the Go’uald and Jaffa than any Soldier on Earth.
The cartridge is one of three that has seen widespread adoption or investigation into the dedicated PDW class the others being HK MP7A1’s 4.6x30mm and to an emerging degree 7.62x35mm BLK aka .300 blackout though the later is more often specialized as a suppressed weapon a sort of counterpart to the VSS Vintorez 9.
Generally when NATO forces chose a PDW it’s either an SMG or a short barrel carbine. The MP5, MP9 or Mk18, M4, G36K, G36C, Scar L PDW, L22 carbine… ecta. This isn’t unique to NATO either the QBZ191 with a 10.5 inch barrel, Ak12K, AK105/AK104, AKS74U. This isn’t Just because modern vehicles are larger it’s more often as commonality of cartridges and the fact that the PDW general issue role doesn’t need to be a unique cartridge. It just needs to offer enough firepower to either force back the assault on the camp or buy time until heavier friendly forces can reinforce.
This often results in the dedicated PDWs becoming specialized to SOF units.
The Soviets had their own assault rifles starting from the Fedorov Avtomat rifle designed way back in Tsarist Russia.
The 7.62x54mm round as in their rifles proved to be unusable in a fully automatic rifle because of too much recoil. So Fedorov used the Japanese Arisaka round at 6.5x50mm. The Russians had bought quite a lot of Japanese rifles and they had lots of ammunition for them available. Later in the WW2 period the Soviets tried again with automatic rifles with the rifle round, failed with the AVS-36 and AVT-40, so they needed a new intermediate round and they made the 7.62x39mm because it was much easier to manufacture using existing ammunition production lines. It is as simple as that.

The Fedorov may have been developed during the late Czarist era but wasn’t fielded until after the Liberal February Revolution. The Soviets dropped it only to re adopt it in an emergency then dropped it again. That’s the history of early automatic rifles in general. The Fedorov has retroactivity been seen as one of the early attempts at an assault rifle one of a number around the world, but clearly it didn’t have the influence the STG had.
 

The Observer

Junior Member
Registered Member
Five short videos from Zhuhai on the various small arms on display.



The triggers look kinda "creepy", no definite break until the pistol actually fires. Is it possible to put in aftermarket parts to improve the trigger pull and feel for Chinese SWAT or PAP spec ops?
 
Top