PLA Small arms

MwRYum

Major
View attachment 44589
View attachment 44590
Just wondering why the Chinese military and police stick to iron sights rather than various electronic scopes available and could be easily manufactured in various optical factories across China. Costs? Traditional habits of reliance on iron sight?
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
The PAP were quick to adopt new stuff because they've less directoral constraints in adopting new gears and stuff, whereas the military is the opposite, but at the same time they've monopoly in the armament R&D and production.

So you often see many things that the PAP have been using for years, finally adopted by the military on limited numbers.

Now, most if not all current service arms made in China are not exactly optical sight friendly by their native design, if to solve that problem major redesign or wide adoption of mod kit will be in order. PAP might have such flexibility but not the PLA. Secondly, it was the last couple of years optical sights that's tough enough to withstand weapon's operations began to trickle out of their commercial manufacturing sector. I'm not that hopeful that the PLA would give them even a trial run anytime soon, PAP might be otherwise.

Thirdly, old habit dies hard - they still see accessories not as integral part of the small arms but as delicate pieces, not dare to use them, keep them in the storage instead.

Perhaps, if and when the new rifle series indeed true and entered into service, it might lead to the solution of at least one or two of the problems mentioned above.
 

jobjed

Captain
The PAP were quick to adopt new stuff because they've less directoral constraints in adopting new gears and stuff, whereas the military is the opposite, but at the same time they've monopoly in the armament R&D and production.

So you often see many things that the PAP have been using for years, finally adopted by the military on limited numbers.

Now, most if not all current service arms made in China are not exactly optical sight friendly by their native design, if to solve that problem major redesign or wide adoption of mod kit will be in order. PAP might have such flexibility but not the PLA. Secondly, it was the last couple of years optical sights that's tough enough to withstand weapon's operations began to trickle out of their commercial manufacturing sector. I'm not that hopeful that the PLA would give them even a trial run anytime soon, PAP might be otherwise.

Thirdly, old habit dies hard - they still see accessories not as integral part of the small arms but as delicate pieces, not dare to use them, keep them in the storage instead.

Perhaps, if and when the new rifle series indeed true and entered into service, it might lead to the solution of at least one or two of the problems mentioned above.

I'm pretty sure the CAPF gets better personal gear because they need it and not because the PLA has a vendetta against good equipment. The PLA is not getting into a MOUT war any time soon whereas the CAPF regularly gets involved with shooting Uyghur separatists returning with training from IS and Syria.

Saying the PLA doesn't have as advanced of personal gear as the CAPF because they dislike change is like saying the CAPF doesn't have IFVs as good as the PLA's because they dislike change. In both cases, the different mission profiles between the two organisations lead to different priorities in equipment acquisition. Conservatism or lack thereof has nothing to do with it.
 

Sunbud

Junior Member
Registered Member
This is probably old but looks like a photo of QBZ 95-1 finished on the assembly line with a picatinny upper. It looks fairly similar to the QBZ-95 depicted in the ARMA 3 video game (below). Anyone have any more information on this image?
c2008d712f604f909b9f22ef228459d6_hd.jpg Arma3-render-car95.png
 

MwRYum

Major
This is probably old but looks like a photo of QBZ 95-1 finished on the assembly line with a picatinny upper. It looks fairly similar to the QBZ-95 depicted in the ARMA 3 video game (below). Anyone have any more information on this image?
View attachment 44639 View attachment 44638
The absence of bayonet lug means those are civilian model, and that means Type 97.

You should also see there are KeyMod holes (those that were said not fully machined to KeyMod spec). Strange, because KeyMod is open source, no need to worry about patent, and full specs is openly available.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I don't know if it's already posted yet, but those QBZ-95 look like very similar to Keltec weapons and K&M rifles:


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
They bear a very passing resemblance to the Type 97 modifications pictured, The
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
from 1983.is far closer to resembling the QBZ97.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

This was modified and changed makers first to Bushmaster then the KM who basically changed the charging handle location and mounted a length of rail
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

It was designed from day 1 with rails in mind.
Or there is the HS VHS 2 Rifle
VHS-D2.png
With the Exception of the F2000 and P90 which are FNH getting artistic All Intermediate caliber bullpups have the same silhouette dating back to the EM2 rifles. this is because of there basic needs. The want of a compact magazine feed weapon gas operated ( semi or full auto) with a full length barrel.
To do this they removed the Stock and merged it into the receiver this necessitates a means actuate the trigger group of the rifle which is still in it's natural location behind the magazine and under the bolt. so they needed to create a extension from the sear to the new trigger and pistol grip. And the basic bull pup is born but in the process two things have happened. first the iron sight radius and placement suffers this is because Iron sights normally sit raised on the rifles receiver. but then they merged the stock and receiver the traditional place for the rear sight is not behind your ear when aiming. well the front sight is fine in theory. most Intermediate calibre rifles have a slight change in elevation of the stock vs the receiver this is to allow aligning the eye to the rear iron.
So to fix this in the EM2 the British decided to eliminate the ironsights and went to attempt an optical sight. Many Bullpups after it did the same like the AUG. They created a raised scope that sits on a structure resembling a handle. there's took the Handle and removed the scope they mounted a rear iron in the handle and raised the front iron to match it in a manner akin to the AR15 ( The QBZ95 Does this). Others like the French (FAMAS) extended the "Handle" between the two sights ( like the VHS2 above) forming a Sight bridge.
The other issue that moving the receiver did was shorten the hand grip. traditional rifles have a 2 handed grip the pistol grip and the supporting hand, when the bull pup came about the place one would normally support the weapon from is now either empty space, paynet blade or burning hot barrel. So The Famas extended the hand guard but could only go so far, The AUG added a fold down grip and a full length hand guard that you could support the weapon from and the P90, F2000 Split the difference.
And all was well... Then Rails declared war. Until the mid 1990s the Idea that you would mount more than a Scope and Bayonet to a rifle was limited. There had been some things done Grenade launchers and Ciener Ultimate Over/Under shotguns but those were permanent modifications. the idea that you could add more and remove said modifications was earth shaking. First though Rails had to become common. Prior to about the 1970's it was rare for a weapon to have a scope mount from the manufacturer. Gunsmiths would be used to modify weapons to fit scopes. Those weapons that did have scope mounts usually had there own proprietary system that was only good for scopes and then some scopes as the maker had to make a product that fit the mount then came the Weaver rail which over time allowed a standardized mounting. Basically you went from having to customize a mount to getting only a OEM mount to any system you could fit. the weaver though was lackluster it was far from perfect had limitations but another maker A.R.M.S. took and improved the design into the M1913 Mil Spec rail that solved those, Then then took the rail and started doing something funny. Rather then just on top of the weapon now they placed them on the sides and bottoms as Makers like Surefire started making lights and laser dots for weapons. then someone added a foregrip and bipod. And SOPMOD was born and it expanded to the civilian market and this was the early 1990's. The US started it with the CAR15 that became the M4, HK jumped in on the G36, offering variants with a reduced height rail system lacking the integrated optics.
as more makers jumped on the Bull pup eventually came in. When that happened two Schools of thought emerged the first school was to follow the M4 carbine. That is remove the sight handle flat top the rifle, rail the upper surface the whole length. you see this on the Tavor series, SAR, SA80 updates, F2000, and AUG.
The other was to follow the G36C with a rail system that has some high off the weapon in the form of a "Sight Bridge" with a rail running the length.

Adding Rails to a bull pup depends on the form the rifle takes And the QBZ95 dictates a number of things. first because of the top mounted charging handle location like that on the original AR10, UZI and Famas demands 1 of two options either change the handle like KM did to the M17 to a side mounted or a sight bridge with just enough clearance to access the handle ( like the VHS 2 above). farther more the take down of the rifle used the Carry handle position as a structural point of the rifle. Although the carry handle is a single module the front and rear sights there in are mounted to the barrel to reduce the profile of the weapon demands changing those These demand gunsmithing.
as a result to get a full flat top QBZ9x series carbine you would need to remanufacture the weapons. There have been claims of a QBZ95 1 Flat top from the factory with a side mounted handle .
The absence of bayonet lug means those are civilian model, and that means Type 97.

You should also see there are KeyMod holes (those that were said not fully machined to KeyMod spec). Strange, because KeyMod is open source, no need to worry about patent, and full specs is openly available.
The Keymod cuts are wrong, the Keymod slot has a internal chamfer cut that widens to the interior of the slot verses the exterior. without this cut the Keymod slots on the 97 won't mount. Of course Keymod on the Whole is a flawed system. during US DOD testing for potential use by SOCOM Keymod was tested vs MLOK in point of Shift it had a Spread of .2 to 14.6 MOA, in drop testing Keymod systems failed, in pull tests Mlok held out twice as long. the only advantage was ease of mounting.
 

Inst

Captain
@TE: Since you seem to be a US-based gunnut, why is it that the bullpup is not seeing wide adoption in the United States? Especially when we're seeing the megapistols genre, where a full-caliber rifle is abbreviated to near-pistol size, it seems tautological that a bullpup in the megapistol range would offer shooters a high-compactness option while retaining full-caliber.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
@ Inst from a civil or government environment?
Most civilians can pick what they want and Some do love Bullpups, but first remember that a lot of US shooters would have cut their teeth in there military service that means AR15s. second because of some foolishness in laws it's harder to get a Short barreled carbine than it is to get basically the same firearm minus the stock.
And even as a bullpup it still has to conform to the minimum overall length demands of the BATF so 26 inches of bullpup vs 26 inches of pistol AR.
Because we would be talking civilian shooters "feel" comes to play. not just looks cool but trigger feel and how it works for the shooter can reflect accuracy. as a rule military triggers are spongy with lots of creep this is because they tend to favor reliability. having the know that at -40* you can shot the weapon is a must for a military. and Bullpups take that and make it worse. this is because of the way it works the trigger group and sear are still in the back of the receiver behind the magazine. so to work the trigger a connecting arm has to be run from the trigger group to the trigger and to allow that to operate you basically have a simplified second trigger group. The more you Trick out the Plumbing the easier to stuff up the drain. so bullpup triggers tend to be even more mushy and kreepy. This of course goes against the civy shooter who wants crispness.
There are a number of bulls on the US market though.

for the Gov side of things it's easier to get M4's from the Surplus of the DOD and most LE have served as military so commonality of training.
from the military side frankly there is nothing that bullpups offer thus far that is a major advancement over the M4A1 in the same caliber.
 
Top