PLA Organization & Structure discussion

T

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
I posed my original question 7 years ago. Since then, reorganization of the PLA Ground Force happened and now it's obvious the force structure is indeed moving away a bit from so much emphasis on main battle tanks.
Right now, the PLA ground force has converted to three types of brigades. Heavy, using tanks. Medium, using wheeled platform assault guns, and light, not relying on any heavy, direct fire guns organic to them.
Number of units containing tanks seems to have dropped quite a bit, with older type tanks being retired in droves, without a 1 for 1 replacement. Sadly, precise figures are not available, it's more like anecdotal evidence and just counting the brigades with tanks now versus regiments/divisions with tanks in 2015.

Not that it's necessarily an authoritative source, but Military balance 2013 and 2022 editions seem to show a fall in number of tanks as well. With the 2013 edition listing 7430 main battle tanks, while the 2022 edition lists 5400 MBTs.

Anyway, the current heavy/medium/light brigade types within the PLA is sort of similar to the US Army division of Armored/Stryker/infantry brigade types. With the medium PLA brigades also being reliant on wheeled armored vehicles, just like the stryker brigades. Stryker brigades also used to have assault vehicles with 105mm guns, though those seem to be retiring quickly. Possibly to be replaced by systems derived from the new light assault tank (MPF) sometime in the future. if that happens soon the stryker brigade will cease to be composed of almost exclusively stryker / wheeled vehicles. If it happens later, when the whole stryker family of vehicles is retired, then perhaps just the turret section of the MPF might go onto a wholly new, bigger wheeled family of vehicles. Anyway, the MPF is primarily developed to add light tanks to US army infantry brigades. In which case they'll really become heavier than chinese light brigades.

Anyway, the Chinese brigades do seem to still like tanks (and wheeled platform assault guns) more than US ones, with the ratio of heavy to medium and medium to light brigades being skewed towards the heavier platforms (38 heavy/ 27 medium/ 12 light) more than the ratio of US armored to stryker to infantry brigades. (15 armored/9 stryker/ 34 infantry)

Counts are approximative. And lack special forces. PLA for example seems to have at least 14 additional special combat brigades (which would be even more lightly equipped than regular light brigades). The US Army seems to have some 9 or so regiment-ish sized special forces units, though that's a very quick count. Do provide more a detailed count if you can.
 
W

wssth0306

Junior Member
Registered Member
Totoro said:
I posed my original question 7 years ago. Since then, reorganization of the PLA Ground Force happened and now it's obvious the force structure is indeed moving away a bit from so much emphasis on main battle tanks.
Right now, the PLA ground force has converted to three types of brigades. Heavy, using tanks. Medium, using wheeled platform assault guns, and light, not relying on any heavy, direct fire guns organic to them.
Number of units containing tanks seems to have dropped quite a bit, with older type tanks being retired in droves, without a 1 for 1 replacement. Sadly, precise figures are not available, it's more like anecdotal evidence and just counting the brigades with tanks now versus regiments/divisions with tanks in 2015.

Not that it's necessarily an authoritative source, but Military balance 2013 and 2022 editions seem to show a fall in number of tanks as well. With the 2013 edition listing 7430 main battle tanks, while the 2022 edition lists 5400 MBTs.

Anyway, the current heavy/medium/light brigade types within the PLA is sort of similar to the US Army division of Armored/Stryker/infantry brigade types. With the medium PLA brigades also being reliant on wheeled armored vehicles, just like the stryker brigades. Stryker brigades also used to have assault vehicles with 105mm guns, though those seem to be retiring quickly. Possibly to be replaced by systems derived from the new light assault tank (MPF) sometime in the future. if that happens soon the stryker brigade will cease to be composed of almost exclusively stryker / wheeled vehicles. If it happens later, when the whole stryker family of vehicles is retired, then perhaps just the turret section of the MPF might go onto a wholly new, bigger wheeled family of vehicles. Anyway, the MPF is primarily developed to add light tanks to US army infantry brigades. In which case they'll really become heavier than chinese light brigades.

Anyway, the Chinese brigades do seem to still like tanks (and wheeled platform assault guns) more than US ones, with the ratio of heavy to medium and medium to light brigades being skewed towards the heavier platforms (38 heavy/ 27 medium/ 12 light) more than the ratio of US armored to stryker to infantry brigades. (15 armored/9 stryker/ 34 infantry)

Counts are approximative. And lack special forces. PLA for example seems to have at least 14 additional special combat brigades (which would be even more lightly equipped than regular light brigades). The US Army seems to have some 9 or so regiment-ish sized special forces units, though that's a very quick count. Do provide more a detailed count if you can.
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I didn't realize I was replying to a old thread , but the argument remains .
The point I am making was this , the best land warfare ability still remains heavy BCT and other armored mechanized formations.
But it's too slow to deploy , needs a lot of logistics , and expensive to maintain , equip , train.
Therefor you will try to keep as few of them you can , while meeting your need.
The difference been :
1.Chinese potential adversary is much closer then US , there for easier to mobilize the Heavy BCT to a given war zone in Asia.
Which lowers the logistic difficulty , means with the same amount of resources China can have more heavy BCT's.

2.USA has allies that adds to the Armored units that is available ,South Koreans has 7 armored division , Japan has 3 divisions.
China cannot rely on a Russian support in the same way , therefor PLA will invest more into Heavy BCT compared to USA.

3.PLAAF is not nearly as capable as the USAF , neither is the PLA army aviation , to makes up for that , it will need heavier formations regardless of the type ,even the PLA light BCT have more artillery then it's US counterpart.


Given these differences ,for the same capability, and the rising possibility of rapid , violent , short , near peer land engagement in Asia.
Both created mechanized ,8X8 wheeled chassis based force.
PLA is trying to make a Heavy BCT as light it can be in order to be more mobile, to arrive on the field faster , that was the rational for the PLA medium BCT , they are meant to be mechanized formation that can use the extensive high ways that China built over the last few decades without been put first on a truck, doctrinally they are needed to buy time for the Heavy BCT to arrive.

US is trying to give as much bang to the light infantry, give them more armor then a Humvee, a bigger gun then a 50cal, while still have the ability to airlift them half way around the globe. Which now realize maybe still need more firepower.

Both are trying to have the same ability , a force that is better suited for conflict where the enemy isn't an AA gun mounted on a truck, but is mobile , logistically easier to feed , and cheaper to have , but they went at it from different starting point ,ending up with similar but not the same implantations.
 
Maikeru

Maikeru

Major
Registered Member
Curious as to whether PLAGF amphibious brigades are classed as light or medium? My instinct says medium. Also light CABs can be mountain, or hi-mobility I think? Or is there say 1-2 hi-mob battalions per light brigade and the rest in trucks? As for air assault brigades, are these composed solely of helos and crews, which work with a light brigade as the ground troops, or do they also contain infantry, artillery, etc.?
 
W

wssth0306

Junior Member
Registered Member
Maikeru said:
Curious as to whether PLAGF amphibious brigades are classed as light or medium? My instinct says medium. Also light CABs can be mountain, or hi-mobility I think? Or is there say 1-2 hi-mob battalions per light brigade and the rest in trucks? As for air assault brigades, are these composed solely of helos and crews, which work with a light brigade as the ground troops, or do they also contain infantry, artillery, etc.?
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As far as I know Amphibious CAB are classed as heavy , it has more to do with the fact that the chassis the force is based on , is tracked.
It's logistics will be more similar to a heavy CAB , rather the a medium one.
The classification has less to do with the armor of the given platform, and has to do with the mobility of it's forces.

Does most of the unit need special trucks to ferry them on road , instead driving on it's own power ?
How many sorties does it take to air lift a battalion ?
How is the unit's off road maneuverability?

8x8 wheeled platform is essentially heavy armored truck , while a tank is a tracked tractor.

PLA doesn't use Mountain CAB as a naming convention for it's unit stationed in mountains area, the are just Light CAB.
High mobility unit are part of the light CAB , it seems right now they are 1 battalion in a brigade , but as far as I see , I think they are moving towards the idea that all maneuver element should be high mobility , it just will take time to get every squad a 3rd gen Mengshi.
Because there are no downside for upgrading ,beside cost, it adds mobility while doesn't reduce the foot mobile ability of a given unit.

From the info I see Air assault are brigades has organic infantry , they are equivalent in it mission US 101st airborne and similar in it structure ,with added attack helicopter as escort for the transport, they have right now 120mm mortar as the battalion fire support ,and 155 high mobility for the brigade ,so it seems to me that they are not of yet planning doing an air insertion more then 40KM behind enemy line since by then they will be outside of their own fire support.
It is a new ability for PLA , it battel order may still change , I think mainly the are waiting for a M777 equivalent to enter service as a helicopter liftable 155mm artillery .
 
Maikeru

Maikeru

Major
Registered Member
wssth0306 said:
As far as I know Amphibious CAB are classed as heavy , it has more to do with the fact that the chassis the force is based on , is tracked.
It's logistics will be more similar to a heavy CAB , rather the a medium one.
The classification has less to do with the armor of the given platform, and has to do with the mobility of it's forces.

Does most of the unit need special trucks to ferry them on road , instead driving on it's own power ?
How many sorties does it take to air lift a battalion ?
How is the unit's off road maneuverability?

8x8 wheeled platform is essentially heavy armored truck , while a tank is a tracked tractor.

PLA doesn't use Mountain CAB as a naming convention for it's unit stationed in mountains area, the are just Light CAB.
High mobility unit are part of the light CAB , it seems right now they are 1 battalion in a brigade , but as far as I see , I think they are moving towards the idea that all maneuver element should be high mobility , it just will take time to get every squad a 3rd gen Mengshi.
Because there are no downside for upgrading ,beside cost, it adds mobility while doesn't reduce the foot mobile ability of a given unit.

From the info I see Air assault are brigades has organic infantry , they are equivalent in it mission US 101st airborne and similar in it structure ,with added attack helicopter as escort for the transport, they have right now 120mm mortar as the battalion fire support ,and 155 high mobility for the brigade ,so it seems to me that they are not of yet planning doing an air insertion more then 40KM behind enemy line since by then they will be outside of their own fire support.
It is a new ability for PLA , it battel order may still change , I think mainly the are waiting for a M777 equivalent to enter service as a helicopter liftable 155mm artillery .
Click to expand...
I thought AH4 and ever lighter variants was already available?

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1653795893779.png
Seems to me the bigger problem is the lack of a CH47 or 53 equivalent to move the 155mm and, more importantly, ammunition around. Z8L can probably lift the gun alone.
 
Z

zhangjim

Junior Member
Registered Member
I have some pictures that depict the organizational structure of the heavy brigade.
But my English is so bad that I can't provide translation.
2970b6003af33a873e3473cc835c10385243b551.jpg
e98736d3d539b600ef977c61ac50352ac75cb751.jpg
a7fcc9ea15ce36d3065df0e67ff33a87e850b151.jpg
2b636059252dd42ae2517c7d463b5bb5c8eab852.jpg

So I can only give a brief description:
It has four armored battalions. Each battalion has two tank companies, two mechanized infantry companies and one artillery company. They mainly use ZTZ99A tanks(112), ZBD04A IFV(104) and PLZ10 120mm mortar howitzers.
One artillery battalion, with PHZ11(9) and PLZ07(27),also has AFT10(9）.
Air defense battalion have PGZ09 and HQ17A.
 
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wssth0306

Junior Member
Registered Member
Maikeru said:
I thought AH4 and ever lighter variants was already available?

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View attachment 89619
Seems to me the bigger problem is the lack of a CH47 or 53 equivalent to move the 155mm and, more importantly, ammunition around. Z8L can probably lift the gun alone.
Click to expand...
It is related, no AH4 has yet to been seen in service , it is probable that the reason been is that PLA doesn't have a helicopter that can lift it , while caring ammo for it so there is not point adopting the howitzer if it cannot be used in the indented way.
 
T

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Interestingly, if one assumes every heavy brigade of the PLA fields 112 tanks, and if we assume there are indeed 32 heavy brigades using tanks (38 total minus 6 amphibious assault ones that don't seem to use tanks) then we get a grand total of 3584 tanks in front line units. Assuming a few hundred more tanks in training units, active duty tank inventory of the PLA today may number little under 4000.
 
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