PLA Next Generation Main Battle Tank

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Yes the Russians did talk of Rearming T14 for a 152mm though that whole program collapsed.
Still we have Eurosatory this year with new MBT sporting new 120mm, 130mm and even 140mm tank guns. Jumping back to 105mm just doesn’t seem realistic unless you have some dramatic technological breakthrough beyond ETC.
 

Index

Senior Member
Registered Member
That’s my thinking. However it may just be that the PLA doesn’t see it as a need at all.

Velocity matters as we are also living in the age of Hard kill APS. Those systems are really really good at swatting ATGMs and FPV drones are not as effective vs EW. Farther you have newer versions of Hard kill APS that are being optimized better to deal with FPVs. Really FPVs are a slower ATGM at best.
APS tipping rods is harder. Many systems try but it’s not easy. The velocities of an APFDS are far faster than an ATGM which can be counted by simply reversing.
Farther tanks in Ukraine are being used in a manor that is unique to that conflict. You can’t expect every future war to grind down to a WW1 with modern technology.

Assuming the ROC army buggers off. They have tanks too are getting very modern ones and a ton of air power of its own. Maybe against the outer Island a few amphibious vehicles with a tank gun would do the job. However to assume that The main island is the Falklands war 2.0 (where the only vehicle on vehicle combat was French armored cars vs British armored scouts) is hubris. Abrams eats light vehicles for breakfast and Taiwan is getting those before any of these are delivered in production.
Heavy tanks used by non-fully equipped armies don't have good record against neither light, medium or heavy vehicles from modern armies. On paper, T72 eats Bradley for breakfast as well, but with no air cover, no working artillery or air defense support, heavy tanks are just pillbox targets for CAS and drones, light tanks/ifvs alone can mop up the survivors easily. Something like this 40-50t 2 man tank likely with similar or better firepower than a T99A will simply wipe the floor with unsupported old heavy tanks.

Rheinmetall 120mm has struggled with front plating on "modernized" T72s and T80s. Its age shows. I don't reckon it will do much to a tank that weighs the same as a T90M but only needs to protect 2 people, which furthermore has like 30 yrs+ of tech advancement and better material science than the original T72 and Abrams.

We don't even know for sure the new tank is 105 or 120 or what type of tech the gun uses. But it's promising for the role it would be designed for, which is offensive type operations rather than defensive ones like the 99A.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
In recent times tanks are much more often used in an anti fortification role rather than a tank on tank role. Majority of tank kills in Ukraine are done through artillery fire/FPV/ATGM, in decreasing range. To get within cannon range they would have to survive all three of those categories, plus ground launched NLOS missiles which both NATO and China is equipped with.

With such threats present a general 105mm gun with an anti-air auto-cannon that also doubles as anti-material/infantry would not be such a bad idea.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Heavy tanks used by non-fully equipped armies don't have good record against neither light, medium or heavy vehicles from modern armies. On paper, T72 eats Bradley for breakfast as well, but with no air cover, no working artillery or air defense support, heavy tanks are just pillbox targets for CAS and drones, light tanks/ifvs alone can mop up the survivors easily. Something like this 40-50t 2 man tank likely with similar or better firepower than a T99A will simply wipe the floor with unsupported old heavy tanks.
Not heavy tanks. Heavy tanks haven’t been a thing since the 1950s. We are talking MBTs which are derivative of the Medium Tank class.
Bradley does so as it has 2 ATGMs and better optics allowing it to take decisive action.
Also you are making a lot of assumptions that are just that assumptions.
Much of the failures we have seen of MBTs in the last few years have been them used in a manor where they are not operating in accordance with the Doctrines by which they were designed. Unsupported as you describe. But any vehicle used by such is a victim waiting to be destroyed. Light or heavy or an MBT.
Rheinmetall 120mm has struggled with front plating on "modernized" T72s and T80s. Its age shows. I don't reckon it will do much to a tank that weighs the same as a T90M but only needs to protect 2 people, which furthermore has like 30 yrs+ of tech advancement and better material science than the original T72 and Abrams.
Yes it has however that’s the norm for all MBT of comparable generation. The best armor of an MBT is always at the frontal plates of the turret. So gunners aim for thinner parts of the vehicle.
Next again you seem to be focusing in I can only assume you are referring to my comment on Taiwan. However Taiwan is getting M1A2T a state of the art Abrams replacing the very very old M48 and M60 MBT which are already obsolete.
By the time this vehicle enters service M1A2T will be in delivery along side large quantities of modern IFVs, drones, missiles, artillery and military Aircraft.
We don't even know for sure the new tank is 105 or 120 or what type of tech the gun uses. But it's promising for the role it would be designed for, which is offensive type operations rather than defensive ones like the 99A.
Finally something we can agree on!
We don’t know. Yet we have now almost a page going back to the assumption of a 105mm.
This second line of your argument is just weird. MBT are designed for both offensive and defensive. There are almost no weapons single role. Though if you want to claim a more offensive doctrine then Type 99 is already more optimized for offensive use. When the Soviets designed their concept of MBTs they focused to make the tank as small as possible with the intention being to more easily cross damaged bridges and amphibious capability to cross rivers. When the Chinese designed the type 99 it inherited much of the same features and flaws of the design. A light weight, degrees of amphibious capability and shallow angles of gun elevation and depression.
In recent times tanks are much more often used in an anti fortification role rather than a tank on tank role. Majority of tank kills in Ukraine are done through artillery fire/FPV/ATGM, in decreasing range. To get within cannon range they would have to survive all three of those categories, plus ground launched NLOS missiles which both NATO and China is equipped with.

With such threats present a general 105mm gun with an anti-air auto-cannon that also doubles as anti-material/infantry would not be such a bad idea.
That’s not a recent thing. It’s a fact that tracks all the way through the history of the tank. It’s like the fighter pilot myth. That fighter only fight fighters and bombers. That’s most missions of such are actually CAS is lost on Top gun fans.
Farther Ukraine has shown MBT used especially in the fire support role using 125mm, 120mm.
Farther Said cannons have ranges that rival most ATGMs and ranges that rival most infantry level artillery.

Well just as an assault gun role a 105mm is good enough. Larger tank guns are just as good if not better in the role due to increased HE payloads. Whole families of shells designed for anti material, anti fortification roles in the 125mm and 120mm.
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Not heavy tanks. Heavy tanks haven’t been a thing since the 1950s. We are talking MBTs which are derivative of the Medium Tank class.
The Tiger heavy tank in WW2 had 54 tonnes of weight. The Tiger II heavy tank had 70 tonnes of weight.
The M1 Abrams MBT has over 70 tonnes of weight in the current configurations.

The IS-2 heavy tank had 46 tonnes of weight. It was roughly the weight of the "medium" Panther tank.

Bradley does so as it has 2 ATGMs and better optics allowing it to take decisive action.
Does it have better optics? Really? You think the Russians don't have thermals and modern optics in their vehicles?
The Bradley sent to Ukraine shouldn't have the latest everything either.
The main advantage in my opinion is that unlike the M1 Abrams it does not have a prohibitive weight to operate in Ukraine and is available in much larger numbers.

Much of the failures we have seen of MBTs in the last few years have been them used in a manor where they are not operating in accordance with the Doctrines by which they were designed. Unsupported as you describe. But any vehicle used by such is a victim waiting to be destroyed. Light or heavy or an MBT.
The front in Ukraine is just too long to have mass tank formations. And the pervasive use of ATGMs, FPV drones, and guided artillery make massed formations a hazard anyway. You saw the Ukrainians try against the Russians last year with their summer offensive. How well did that go?

However Taiwan is getting M1A2T a state of the art Abrams replacing the very very old M48 and M60 MBT which are already obsolete.
Taiwan has little choice since basically no one else will sell them military equipment.

By the time this vehicle enters service M1A2T will be in delivery along side large quantities of modern IFVs, drones, missiles, artillery and military Aircraft.
"Modern" as in modernized 1970s era designed hardware. At least for the most part.

When the Soviets designed their concept of MBTs they focused to make the tank as small as possible with the intention being to more easily cross damaged bridges and amphibious capability to cross rivers. When the Chinese designed the type 99 it inherited much of the same features and flaws of the design. A light weight, degrees of amphibious capability and shallow angles of gun elevation and depression.
The Russian MBTs were not designed to be particularly amphibious. Not more than other MBTs. They are lighter because regular road bridges in the Soviet Union were not designed for heavy loads to begin with. They would collapse with heavy weight. As for the shallow gun depression and elevation, the tank was designed to have the absolute minimum silhouette, so it would be harder to hit. The tank was made as low to the ground as possible to make it harder to hit it with direct fire ATGMs or by opposing tanks on the vast Eastern European plains. Because the turret isn't in a tall position you can't depress or elevate the gun as much.

The modern Japanese Type 10 tank was designed with similar weight parameters as Soviet tanks. It weighs 44 tonnes. The Japanese mainland also has similar road and bridge weight limitations.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
That’s not a recent thing. It’s a fact that tracks all the way through the history of the tank. It’s like the fighter pilot myth. That fighter only fight fighters and bombers. That’s most missions of such are actually CAS is lost on Top gun fans.
Farther Ukraine has shown MBT used especially in the fire support role using 125mm, 120mm.
Farther Said cannons have ranges that rival most ATGMs and ranges that rival most infantry level artillery.

Well just as an assault gun role a 105mm is good enough. Larger tank guns are just as good if not better in the role due to increased HE payloads. Whole families of shells designed for anti material, anti fortification roles in the 125mm and 120mm.
Maybe the consideration here is sustainability and ease of logistics. If PLA were to do cross strait/island hopping campaign lugging around 125mm shells would mean less ammo capacity and more supply ships needed to sustain the same volume of fire. A smaller gun will allow for ample AA ammo on secondary weapon, which in a FIC conflict will be extremely valuable due to the skis being dotted with UAVs.

In such a conflict sightlines will rarely reach the full range of the tank gun, firing from concealed position and indirect fire will be the key concern, hence easier logistics should be preferred over direct firepower, ideally anything that can't be killed by the 105 will simply get a loitering munition to the roof.
 

lcloo

Captain
Norinco has developed a new (not so new actually) 105mm guided missile that can be launched from the tank gun. It was known as GP105 as per US military.

This missile could probably be one of the many considerations that they decided to install 105mm gun on this new tank.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
The Tiger heavy tank in WW2 had 54 tonnes of weight. The Tiger II heavy tank had 70 tonnes of weight.
The M1 Abrams MBT has over 70 tonnes of weight in the current configurations.

The IS-2 heavy tank had 46 tonnes of weight. It was roughly the weight of the "medium" Panther tank
Heavy tank isn’t a weight class it’s a classification of role. Heavy tanks traded mobility for armor and firepower vs mediums. M1A2Sep 3 is heavy no heavier than many of its contemporaries like the lates Leopard 2 or Challanger tanks yet they have performance on mobility on par with tanks of substantially lighter weights.
Does it have better optics? Really? You think the Russians don't have thermals and modern optics in their vehicles?
The Bradley sent to Ukraine shouldn't have the latest everything either.
The main advantage in my opinion is that unlike the M1 Abrams it does not have a prohibitive weight to operate in Ukraine and is available in much larger numbers
Considering what we have seen in Ukraine… YES. The armor package is older the optics are not as old as the vehicle’s configuration. Also until you jumped in I wasn’t talking about Ukraine. But the version sent to to Ukraine is one of the lighter versions closer to 64 tons.
The Russian MBTs were not designed to be particularly amphibious. Not more than other MBTs. They are lighter because regular road bridges in the Soviet Union were not designed for heavy loads to begin with. They would collapse with heavy weight. As for the shallow gun depression and elevation, the tank was designed to have the absolute minimum silhouette, so it would be harder to hit. The tank was made as low to the ground as possible to make it harder to hit it with direct fire ATGMs or by opposing tanks on the vast Eastern European plains. Because the turret isn't in a tall position you can't depress or elevate the gun as much.
You are correct that some other western MBT can also cross rivers and streams to degrees in a semisubmersible manner. It’s mostly to try and reduce the need for bridging.
True Easter European bridge engineering was generally to a lighter weight max than many western ones.
The “vast European plains” beyond the mountains of the Fulda gap. Where western armies had dug in positions to snipe said tanks by their better gun elevation and depression angles as they fired on Soviet tank above and below said Soviet tanks angle of elevation and depression.
As to ATGM that line only applies to later T72, T80 and T90 because those same design choices were on just about everything the Russians and Soviets made post T55.
So far nothing here is in disagreement
The modern Japanese Type 10 tank was designed with similar weight parameters as Soviet tanks. It weighs 44 tonnes. The Japanese mainland also has similar road and bridge weight limitations.
true but those are brand spanking new. They achieve such by banking on Tony Stark level ceramic armor. Well simultaneously not giving up on elevation and depression.
Maybe the consideration here is sustainability and ease of logistics. If PLA were to do cross strait/island hopping campaign lugging around 125mm shells would mean less ammo capacity and more supply ships needed to sustain the same volume of fire. A smaller gun will allow for ample AA ammo on secondary weapon, which in a FIC conflict will be extremely valuable due to the skis being dotted with UAVs.
The back bone of the PLA armored corps is armed with 125mm which is in two pieces specially to save space. The actual logistics burden is not that big. AA on the tank is tiny.
In such a conflict sightlines will rarely reach the full range of the tank gun, firing from concealed position and indirect fire will be the key concern, hence easier logistics should be preferred over direct firepower, ideally anything that can't be killed by the 105 will simply get a loitering munition to the roof
If it’s solely for the Island assault mission then why isn’t it on a true amphibious hull? Or the type 15?
Norinco has developed a new (not so new actually) 105mm guided missile that can be launched from the tank gun. It was known as GP105 as per US military.

This missile could probably be one of the many considerations that they decided to install 105mm gun on this new tank.
If it can be fired from a 105mm it can be fired from a 125mm. In fact the Russians and Chinese have been firing 125mm missiles out there guns for decades.
Until we get an actual confirmation here. Until we see it an an arms show with a placard reading 105mm Super mega gun. It’s more logical that they kept the 125mm or improved on it. As far back as 2015 they had a 60 cal 125mm demonstrator gun. Though even that would probably have difficulty penetrating the frontal armor of an adversary MBT.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
true but those are brand spanking new. They achieve such by banking on Tony Stark level ceramic armor. Well simultaneously not giving up on elevation and depression.
The Japanese main islands are highly mountainous. So it is hardly surprising the Type 10 tank is designed that way with a taller profile and better elevation and depression than a Soviet designed tank.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
And Europe is a continent that has mountains, swamps, rivers , forest and deserts. Just as Asia, Africa, the Middle East and the Americas do. It’s part of why Western MBT have taller profiles.
 
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