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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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Because such a relationship between the two didn't yield a discrepancy in this case, did it?

... yes it did, because you were making the assumption that a larger carrier = larger complement... whereas what you were really talking about only having a larger complement...

The QE class is obviously an example of a carrier which has a similar displacement to CV-16/17, yet has a larger complement.



How did you arrive at that conclusion? I don't think I mentioned anywhere that smaller carriers need larger fighters and vice versa.

Because in your previous post #1483, you said "I'm not ruling out the adoption of larger carrier-based fighters off in the distant future, but the PLAN may very well wish to fully take advantage of the deck space provided by the 002 (ex-001A) and 003 (ex-002). For that, it would need more compact fighters. Range concerns may be mitigated by investing in conformal tanks, UAV-derived tankers, or more fuel-efficient engines. But the PLAN will have to compromise and strike a balance."

... which is confusing, because you make it sound like the Navy has not already committed to a "larger carrier based fighter" in their CV-16 and CV-17 carriers in the form of J-15s.

You make it sound like if the Navy adopted a "larger carrier based fighter" in the future, that it would be a "deviation" from the current or past trend, or making it sound like if they chose a larger carrier fighter it would somehow be an "unlikely" scenario when compared to choosing a "larger" fighter.
OTOH, I'm saying that based on the Navy's choice of adopting the J-15 as its current and foreseeable mainstay naval fighter aboard current carriers which will be smaller than their future larger carriers, then shouldn't it make sense that the more likely scenario for the Navy is that the future larger carriers adopt fighters which are not that much smaller than their current platform?

Or to put it simply, shouldn't your paragraph begin with the opposite? i.e.: "I'm not ruling out the adoption of smaller carrier based fighters off in the distant future"?

(Jobjed's post on the last page also describes my confusion regarding your position/phrasing)


My point is: the PLAN would need to consider the size restrictions of its carriers when evaluating the FC-31 against the J-20 particularly in the near future, since the airwing would be confined to the 002 and 003. If the PLAN pursues a larger CVN in the distant future (a notional 004), then it would be relatively free from having to consider the size of the fighters it could choose from.

So, on the contrary, what I'm saying is:
- a "smaller" carrier would require smaller aircraft and the PLAN would have to take that factor into account
- a "larger" carrier would be able to accommodate larger aircraft and the PLAN would be free to focus on other qualities of its future fighters (such as payload, range, etc.)

I'm not saying that payload/range/etc. shouldn't be accounted for when selecting fighters for smaller CVs but that their influence would be limited vis-a-vis a tender for a future 100k ton CVN.

Yes, I agree with this in principle. See my previous paragraph for an explanation about my confusion.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I'm confused as to how you reach that conclusion.

Considering any naval stealth fighter will be derived from J-20 or FC-31, I'm not sure how you could say that it would take longer to develop a naval stealth fighter for the Chinese Navy than developing a high payload stealthy UCAV.

The maturity of the relevant subsystems, testing, and production-readiness for a naval stealth fighter atm should far outstrip that of a naval stealthy ucav.
I could be wrong here, but I'd contend a stealthy strike UCAV is in many ways less complex, and because of that can, amongst other benefits to the development process, sustain a more intense testing cadence. Any naval design derived from the J-20 or J-31 is still going to be a structurally different plane that will have to undergo some additional mechanical development, and as these designs have to both fit a broader set of roles and, specifically, more kinematically demanding flight capabilities, the mechanical engineering involved will be considerably greater, even for derived designs. That's going to impose more stringent demands on the development process for a stealth naval fighter than a stealth strike UCAV, which doesn't have to cover as many mechanically intensive requirements. The lack of a human pilot also means greater tolerances for risks.

I'm basically saying that I believe the potential "costs" of having the naval stealth fighter be able to carry stand off powered weapons in the JSM/AARGM-ER class internally is fairly minimal while incurring significant benefits in terms of future flexibility.
We disagree on the cost of the feature I think. A larger bay might incur other penalties and compromises that are nontrivial, either in program cost, design complexity, or reduced capabilities. Making the bays bigger sounds like a trivial change, but the design decisions that go into fighter planes are tightly interdependent optimizations, where changing one variable can have nonlinear cascading effects that can result in suboptimal outcomes. One way to get around these problems for planes is to simply include a more powerful engine, but that is not yet a reliable option for China, given the state of their engine technology.

OTOH, I believe the long term costs in terms of future flexibility if the naval stealth fighter does not have a sufficiently large weapons bay I believe could prove to be quite damaging for the overall long term strategic capability of the carrier strike group of the future.
I think what we're learning from the JSF program is that squeezing in more multirole flexibility into one platform isn't always a better approach than acquiring the same capability through a more diversified set of complementary platforms.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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I could be wrong here, but I'd contend a stealthy strike UCAV is in many ways less complex, and because of that can, amongst other benefits to the development process, sustain a more intense testing cadence. Any naval design derived from the J-20 or J-31 is still going to be a structurally different plane that will have to undergo some additional mechanical development, and as these designs have to both fit a broader set of roles and, specifically, more kinematically demanding flight capabilities, the mechanical engineering involved will be considerably greater, even for derived designs. That's going to impose more stringent demands on the development process for a stealth naval fighter than a stealth strike UCAV, which doesn't have to cover as many mechanically intensive requirements. The lack of a human pilot also means greater tolerances for risks.

I would argue the opposite regarding UCAV being less complex tbh.

For a carrierborne strike UCAV to be viable, they need to not only demonstrate the technology to reliably take off from a carrier and to land, but also to control the UCAV aboard the carrier itself (from taxiing to after recovery)... and most importantly is developing the associated subsystems aboard the UCAV and/or aboard the ship or other aircraft, and other autonomous features, to allow the UCAV to actually conduct its mission in a reliable way that is near to what you would expect for a manned fighter... keeping in mind a key problem they will face is opfor jamming and interference against your UCAV control.

That said, I do agree that a fighter naturally has higher structural requirements and complexity compared to a UCAV -- but those structural requirements and complexity are all things that the Chinese aerospace industry have done before and have reliably gone through the paces for developing and testing.

OTOH, developing a reliable carrierborne UCAV, I think entails developing far more new subsystems and software systems where you not only have the issue of developing a system to make the UCAV reliably fly off and land and taxi around the carrier, but also to develop an entire family of shipborne and/or airborne subsystems and datalinks, as well as integrated autonomous features to allow your UCAV to be able to function as a reliable striker in the face of opposition...


Between those two options, I have far more confidence that the CAC or SAC would be able to produce a relatively mature naval stealth fighter by 2025 than a relatively mature naval strike UCAV.



We disagree on the cost of the feature I think. A larger bay might incur other penalties and compromises that are nontrivial, either in program cost, design complexity, or reduced capabilities. Making the bays bigger sounds like a trivial change, but the design decisions that go into fighter planes are tightly interdependent optimizations, where changing one variable can have nonlinear cascading effects that can result in suboptimal outcomes. One way to get around these problems for planes is to simply include a more powerful engine, but that is not yet a reliable option for China, given the state of their engine technology.

I think this may be it.

I see increasing the volume of say, the J-20 weapons bay to allow it to carry JSM or AARGM-ER sized missiles to probably be a relatively low cost thing to achieve (and even more so when considering the benefits it will entail).
Also, I think the naval derivatives of J-20 or FC-31 will be different enough from their land based counterparts in such a way where there will be cascading effects anyway.
To develop the navy's premier next generation stealth fighter without the ability to deploy stand off range weapons -- effectively denying the fighter the ability to conduct stealthy stand off land strike, anti ship missions, and SEAD/DEAD -- IMO would be a grave strategic oversight.


I think what we're learning from the JSF program is that squeezing in more multirole flexibility into one platform isn't always a better approach than acquiring the same capability through a more diversified set of complementary platforms.

I think it depends on how much multirole flexibility you seek.

I'm not suggesting they develop a V/STOL variant of J-20 or FC-31 or anything like that.


I'm literally suggesting increasing the internal volume of their weapons bay a little bit. JSF as a program obviously has very well documented issues, but I don't think its big bulbous weapons bay is a significant culprit behind them. Think how the F-35's ventral fuselage differs from the X-35 -- that's the extent of change I envision.


Of course, at the end of the day neither of us know how much more costly or performance degrading a larger weapons bay would be... but I do strongly believe that if the 5th generation carrier fighter lacks a weapons bay to carry powered stand off weapons like JSM, that it would be a very significant hindrance for its future flexibility and the overall combat capability of the future carrier strike group, at least until a stealthy strike UCAV reaches a stage of reliability and maturity.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Look at the F-22 bomb rack configurations, which have a length limit of 3m.

6 racks for AMRAAMs
or
4 racks for 250 lb (110 kg) bombs
or
2 racks for 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs (3m length)

For standoff weapons to be effective in a high-intensity contested environment, they will need to be powered. But powered weapons require a much larger bomb bay, and in any case, the J-20 would only be able to carry a few of these weapons.

Then look at the scenarios. In a world where mature precision-strike capabilities are available to both China and the USA, if you can see a target you can hit it.

So it doesn't matter what platform is carrying the actual missiles, as long as a sensor platform can maintain track. And in a high-intensity contested environment, targets will be protected by their own anti-stealth AWACs vectoring their own stealth fighters.

So I think makes more sense to optimise the J-20 for anti-air operations rather than firing a small number of anti-surface weapons. They would operate with J-15s which have the payload to carry large numbers of air-to-air missiles or air-to-surface missiles. At the same time, there would be numerous naval VLS and bombers and TELs with anti-ship missiles.

It's the same concept as the teaming up the F-22/F-15 or J-20/J-11, along with offboard support. So a smaller and shorter ranged J-31 aircraft wouldn't work as well as the J-20

And if we look at the air force, creating multi-role fighters has not been a priority because the 1st priority is actually gaining air superiority, whether that be by shooting down the opposing planes or destroying the planes on the runways.
 
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Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
Are you familiar with the F-35 and the Joint Strike Missile, Turkish SOM-J and/or AARGM-ER?
Obviously, since you just mentioned them in this thread. The JSM and SOM-J would be what I call "small" antiship missiles. "Medium" weight missiles would be missiles like Klub and LRSAM, while "large" would be missiles like Onyx/Brahmos, YJ-12, and Moskit.

The AARGM-ER does not yet exist. SOM-J hasn't even been tested either. And neither has the JSM. They are all either in development or still in concept stage. So again, there is no stealth fighter in the world that can perform stand-off strike or carry "medium-weight" stand-off missiles. There is no need to lament that the J-20 can't perform these missions when F-22, F-35, and Su-57 cannot perform these missions either. As for the future, who knows what big shrimps will be whispering in our ears a few years, or even a few months from now? China could easily be developing internally-carried antiship missiles for the J-20 as we speak, and in the future possibly for the J-31.

Also, what is considered "stand-off" has changed significantly as air defense missiles have increased in range in recent decades. Antiship and anti-radiation missiles with ranges less than ~200km are now putting their launch platforms within range of air defense missiles like S-300, S-400, HHQ-9, SM-2, and SM-6. This has to be clearly kept in mind when talking about what should to be considered "stand-off" missiles these days.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I would argue the opposite regarding UCAV being less complex tbh.

For a carrierborne strike UCAV to be viable, they need to not only demonstrate the technology to reliably take off from a carrier and to land, but also to control the UCAV aboard the carrier itself (from taxiing to after recovery)... and most importantly is developing the associated subsystems aboard the UCAV and/or aboard the ship or other aircraft, and other autonomous features, to allow the UCAV to actually conduct its mission in a reliable way that is near to what you would expect for a manned fighter... keeping in mind a key problem they will face is opfor jamming and interference against your UCAV control.

That said, I do agree that a fighter naturally has higher structural requirements and complexity compared to a UCAV -- but those structural requirements and complexity are all things that the Chinese aerospace industry have done before and have reliably gone through the paces for developing and testing.

OTOH, developing a reliable carrierborne UCAV, I think entails developing far more new subsystems and software systems where you not only have the issue of developing a system to make the UCAV reliably fly off and land and taxi around the carrier, but also to develop an entire family of shipborne and/or airborne subsystems and datalinks, as well as integrated autonomous features to allow your UCAV to be able to function as a reliable striker in the face of opposition...


Between those two options, I have far more confidence that the CAC or SAC would be able to produce a relatively mature naval stealth fighter by 2025 than a relatively mature naval strike UCAV.
Realistically a strike UCAV isn't feasible without significant developments in autonomy, *but* given the degree to which China is already developing UAVs with roles that would seem to require significant autonomy anyways I suspect work on this is already well under way. Two essential characteristics that should make the development of UAVs faster and more streamlined compared to conventional manned designs are that their core technologies are generally more modular, and in lieu of human support systems and structures tailored to any particular design they employ software that is both easier to iterate on and more generalizable. As I mentioned earlier, much of the work for a future stealthy strike UCAV may already be deep in development through other UAV platforms. While I agree that there are still capabilities that still need to be developed and matured, it seems to me that advances in this field have been pretty rapid. This is all very speculative on my part of course, but I don't think we should use conventional manned platforms as a template for gauging the feasibility and pace of UAV development processes.


I think this may be it.

I see increasing the volume of say, the J-20 weapons bay to allow it to carry JSM or AARGM-ER sized missiles to probably be a relatively low cost thing to achieve (and even more so when considering the benefits it will entail).
Also, I think the naval derivatives of J-20 or FC-31 will be different enough from their land based counterparts in such a way where there will be cascading effects anyway.
Yes, naval variants already impose dramatic shifts to the original designs they're based on that will require a lot of reoptimization, but I'd argue that the different and increased design demands on naval variants would actually make including a larger weapons bay more difficult rather than easier. After all, a larger bay and intended payload puts even greater burdens on the ability to meet performance requirements, since they would be adding even more weight and dimension to designs that already must account for more structural strengthening than their non naval counterparts.

To develop the navy's premier next generation stealth fighter without the ability to deploy stand off range weapons -- effectively denying the fighter the ability to conduct stealthy stand off land strike, anti ship missions, and SEAD/DEAD -- IMO would be a grave strategic oversight.
There are always other ways to meet capability needs without forcing too many requirements into a fixed design. Perhaps you can develop longer range missiles with greater autonomy, or perhaps sensor platforms+datalink can guide a stand off missile without the need of a plane to play delivery, or perhaps you can develop stealthy weapons pods, or perhaps you can design a missile that conforms well enough to the shaping of the plane so that it doesn't dramatically add to radar cross section.

I'm literally suggesting increasing the internal volume of their weapons bay a little bit. JSF as a program obviously has very well documented issues, but I don't think its big bulbous weapons bay is a significant culprit behind them. Think how the F-35's ventral fuselage differs from the X-35 -- that's the extent of change I envision.


Of course, at the end of the day neither of us know how much more costly or performance degrading a larger weapons bay would be... but I do strongly believe that if the 5th generation carrier fighter lacks a weapons bay to carry powered stand off weapons like JSM, that it would be a very significant hindrance for its future flexibility and the overall combat capability of the future carrier strike group, at least until a stealthy strike UCAV reaches a stage of reliability and maturity.
I guess we'll see ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Figaro

Senior Member
Registered Member
6th Type 815A electronic reconnaissance ship ready for sea-trials
FTNsK3V.jpg

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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Figaro another friendly advice There are thread for spy or surveillance ship
You are new here please get familiarize yourself with as much as you can with the thread title I know it is hard because there are so many
Use search keyword wyou will find the thread Dumping it all on PLAN news will make this thread bloated
 

Figaro

Senior Member
Registered Member
Figaro another friendly advice There are thread for spy or surveillance ship
You are new here please get familiarize yourself with as much as you can with the thread title I know it is hard because there are so many
Use search keyword wyou will find the thread Dumping it all on PLAN news will make this thread bloated
But its over 6 months old. It says we shouldn't reopen thread 6 months old in the forum guidelines :eek:. I wanted to post it in the thread.
 
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