Pla Marines

adeptitus said:

I recall reading that the Royal Marines (UK) receives 32 weeks of basic training, and the Dutch Royal Marines receive 48 weeks of basic training? Can anyone verify these numbers?

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I don't know about the Dutch Marines, but the RM Commando training course does last 32 weeks and it is suppopsedly the longest training course of any infantry regiment in the World. Here's an extract from Wikipedia's article on the Royal Marines.

"Training
Royal Marines undergo the longest basic training regimen of any Infantry force in the world (32 weeks), at the Commando Training Centre Royal Marines (CTCRM) at Lympstone, Devon. The Royal Marines is the only part of the British Armed Forces where Officers and Other Ranks are trained at the same location. Much of the basic training is carried out on the rugged terrain of Dartmoor and Woodbury common with a significant proportion taking place at night. Before beginning Royal Marines recruit training the potential recruit must attend a Potential Royal Marine Course (PRMC) held at CTCRM. PRMC lasts 3 days and assesses physical ability and intellectual capacity to undertake the recruit training. Officer candidates must also undertake the Admiralty Interview Board.

Officers and Marines undergo the same training up to the commando tests, thereafter Marines go on to employment in a rifle company while Officers continue training. Officer courses are required to meet higher standards in the Commando tests.


Basic training
The first weeks of training are spent learning basic skills that will be used later. This includes much time spent on the parade ground and on the rifle ranges. Physical training at this stage emphasizes all-round body strength, in order to develop the muscles necessary to carry the heavy weights a marine will use in an operational unit. Key milestones include a gym passout at week 9 (not carried out with fighting order), which shows that a recruit is ready for the Bottom Field, a battle swimming test, and learning to do a "regain" (i.e. climb back onto a rope suspended over a water tank). Most of these tests are completed with the ever present "fighting order" of 32 lb (14.5 kg) of equipment. Individual fieldcraft skills are also taught at this basic stage.


The Commando Course
The culmination of training is a period known as the Commando Course. Following the Royal Marines taking on responsibility for the Commando Role with the disbandment of the Army Commandos at the end of World War II, all Royal Marines, except those in the Royal Marines Band Service, complete the Commando course as part of their training (see below). Key aspects of the course include climbing and ropework techniques, patrolling, and amphibious operations.

This intense phase ends with a series of tests which have remained virtually unchanged since World War II. Again, these tests are done with a "fighting order" of 32 lb (14.5kg) of equipment.

The commando tests are taken on consecutive days; they include;

A nine-mile (14.5 km) speed march, carrying full fighting order, to be completed in 90 minutes; the pace is thus 10 minutes per mile (6 min/km or 6 mph).
The Endurance course is a six mile, (9.65 km), course across rough terrain at Woodbury Common near Lympstone, which includes tunnels, pipes, wading pools, and an underwater culvert. The course ends with a four-mile run back to CTCRM. Followed by a marksmanship test, where the recruit must hit 6 out of 10 shots at a target representing a fig. 11 target at 200 m. To be completed in 73 minutes (71 minutes for Royal Marine officers), these times were recently increased by one minute as the route of the course was altered. The Course ends at the 25m range where the recruit must then put at least 6 out of 10 shots on target without cleaning their weapon.
The Tarzan Assault Course. This is an assault course combined with an aerial confidence test. It starts with a death slide and ends with a rope climb up a thirty foot vertical wall. It must be completed with full fighting order in 13 minutes, 12 minutes for Royal Marine officers. The Potential Officers Course also includes confidence tests from the Tarzan Assault Course, although not with equipment.
The Thirty miler. This is a 30 mile (48 km) march across Dartmoor, wearing fighting order, and additional safety equipment. It must be completed in 8 hours for recruits and 7 hours for Royal Marine officers, who must also navigate the route themselves, rather than following a DS with the rest of a syndicate and carry their own equipment.
The day after the 30 mile (48 km) march, any who failed any of the tests may attempt to retake them.

Completing the Commando Course successfully entitles the recruit or officer to wear the coveted green beret but does not mean that the Royal Marine has finished his training. That decision will be made by the troop or batch training team and will depend on the recruit's or young officer's overall performance. Furthermore, officer training still consists of many more months.

Training to be a Royal Marine takes 32 weeks. The last week is mainly administration and preparing for the pass out parade. Recruits in their final week of training are known as the King's Squad.

After basic and commando training, a Royal Marine Commando will normally join a unit of 3 Commando Brigade. There are three Royal Marines Commando infantry units in the Brigade: 40 Commando located at Norton Manor Camp near Taunton in Somerset, 42 Commando at Bickleigh Barracks, near Plymouth, Devon, and 45 Commando at HMS Condor, Arbroath on the east coast of Scotland.

Non Royal Marine volunteers for Commando training undertake the All Arms Commando Course

There is also a Reserve Commando Course run for members of the Royal Marines Reserve and Commando units of the Territorial Army.
Specialist training
Royal Marines may then go on to undertake specialist training in a variety of skills; Platoon Weapons Instructor, Mortar operator, signals, clerks, sniper, PT instructor, Mountain Leader, Swimmer Canoeist, chef, Landing Craft coxswain etc.

Training for these specialisations may be undertaken at CTCRM or in a joint environment, such as the Defence School of Transport at Leconfield or the Defence Police College.

Some marines are trained in military parachuting to allow flexibility of insertion methods for all force elements. Marines complete this training at RAF Brize Norton but are not required to undergo Pre Parachute Selection Course (P-Company) training with the Parachute Regiment."

adeptitus said:

I recall reading that the Royal Marines (UK) receives 32 weeks of basic training, and the Dutch Royal Marines receive 48 weeks of basic training? Can anyone verify these numbers?

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adeptitus and Neutral Zone are quite right about the 32 weeks that the Royal Marines receive, and only the last 5 weeks of that is their actual Commando Course. I have no idea what the Royal Dutch Marines receive.

In comparison, the regular infantry in most English-speaking armies receive nearly the same amount of training, and to nearly the same high standards of the Royal Marines - infantry in the Australian, British, Canadian, and New Zealand armies all receive 25-28 weeks combined recruit and basic infantry training - but most do not go on to do a commando course, which virtually all Royal Marines do. Infantry in the Canadian Army train for 27 weeks to become a regular rifleman, and must perform, amongst of things, a 10 mile forced- march with full kit in 2 hours (preferably 1 hour 45 minutes). Canadian infantry NCO's receive up to a combined 14 weeks' Junior and Senior Command Course training. Similar, though not identical standards are enforced in the other Commonwealth armies.

By contrast, both the US Army and the US Marine Corps' infantry receive much less training, and to generally lower standards: US Army infantry receive 13-14 weeks recruit and infantry training (which also includes their specialists training, something that the Commonwealth armies add separately) and must pass a 12 mile forced march with 65lbs of kit within 3 hours, and US Army infantry NCOs may receive as little as 2 weeks' Combat Leadership Course training; USMC infantry receive 20-21 weeks recruit and infantry training (which also includes their specialist training) and must pass a 9 or 10 mile forced march with kit over obstacles in (I think) 3 hours. USMC infantry NCOs receive 5 weeks' combined Squad and Platoon Leaders' training.

Of course both the US Army and US Marine Corps are huge organizations in contrast to other English-speaking armies, and their regular infantry are neither intended nor expected (although there are some exceptions to this with USMC) to handle the broad range of missions that Commonwealth armies are, and do.

From what King_Comm and petty officer1 are saying, the PLAN Marines are really closer to the Royal Marines than the USMC, and any comparisons between the USMC and the PLAN Marines should be made with this in mind, in that they're quite different troops and fight in different roles. Regular US Marine infantry are just that, regular infantry (except for those battalions that receive SOC training prior to their deployments), and PLAN Marines are full-fledged commando forces, like the Royal Marines.

Check out "PRC Improvement topic" thread on Professional Discussions Forum. I'm almost tempted to ask a mod to merge these two threads. There's a lot about the PLAN Marines there.

Alright, here's some sources of info on the PLAN Marines:



This has a little useful info, but not a lot.



This is from "China's Navy 2007" published by the Office of Naval Intelligence, and it has a lot of good stuff. Almost of this post is drawn (practically verbatim) from this info.

Basically, ONI says that PLAN Marine Corps Junior Officers are either drawn from one of two sources: 1. the PLAN Naval Vessel Academy at Guangzhou (Canton), spending 3 to 4years there, or 2. recruited from civilian universities (the majority for technical occupations), receiving 3 months's basic officer training before assignment to a junior command position (where they receive 1 to 3 years' on the job training) for non-technical occupations, or spend first 2 years in civilian college then finish remaining 2 years (and degree) at a PLA Academy (National Defense Scholarship Program - similar to US ROTC). Until 1999, however, those junior officers recruited from civilian colleges received one year's basic officer training before assignment to junior command positions, and this has led to complaints within PLAN. PLA Academies are of three types: Basic - Train Platoon Level Commanders, Intermediate - Train Regimental Level Commanders, Advanced - Train Group Army (Corps) Level commanders. PLA Academies offer Bachelour's, Masters' (since 1980's), and Doctor's (since 1990's) degrees.

ONI says that PLAN Marine Corps Non-Commissioned Officers (NCOs) have only formally existed since 1999 when the NCO Corps was established in the PLAN. They are selected from enlisted men who have completed their first 2 years' service. Those who fail NCO selction are demobilized. Those selected attend 1-3 months NCO training (presumably depending on occupation) at an NCO Academy or a training unit. For those who aspire to be NCOs, it is up-or-out.

As enlisted men in their first 2 years' of service no longer receive technical training (since 1999 when the enlisted term of service in PLAN was reduced from 4 years to 2), junior NCOs now perform most technical tasks. To do so, NCOs may attend PLA Academies (but segregated from officers) or colleges to receive technical degrees, or 2-3 years technical training at an NCO Academy, or they may simply complete high school (unaffordable to many Chinese).

NCOs are organized into six separate grades, with two grades each to Junior, Intermediate, and Senior NCO levels. Time in grade for Junior NCOs is 3 years in the 1st Period, 4 Years in 2nd Period; for Intermediate NCOs it is 4 years each in both 3rd and 4th Periods; for Senior NCOs it is 5 years in the 5th Period and 9 years in the final 6th Period. Potentially NCOs may remain for 30 years in the PLAN.

Both the PLAN Officer and the NCO Corps are suffering from shortages of educated and skilled personnel. It appears most educated and skilled Chinese (who live in cities) are intent on seeking the better economic opportunites available to them in civilian life. By contrast, the core of the enlisted force continues to be made up of poor rural dwellers who can't afford high school fees, and view the PLA in general as the only way to escape rural poverty. And, as the NCO Corps is drawn from the enlisted force, this contributes to an NCO shortage in general and a shortage of Senior NCO's in particular, as both the youth of the NCO Corps and the shortage of high school graduates limits enlistees' suitability for NCO selection.

Enlisted men are inducted in November of each year and serve for 2 years until they can be considered for either Officer or NCO selection, and receive 2 months basic training followed by 1 month's seamanship training. He is then posted to his unit, where he receives on the job individual and unit training. By the time an enlisted man has been in the PLAN for 6 months, he is considered ready for unit training. Until 1999, enlisted recruits received 3 months basic training as the term of service was 4 years for PLAN (including PLAN Marine Corps), not the 2 years since.

The PLAN Marine Corps operates on a 1-Year Training cycle, with most training performed during the summer and fall, with a slowdown from November to February are dedicated to basic and individual training of new recruits prior to the training of the unit as a whole. Junior officers and NCOs at this time are temporarily detached from operational units to provide 2 month's basic training for recruits and NCO training (1-3 months) for enlisted men who have completed their first 2 years' service and been selected to replace outgoing NCO's. The Marines conduct Regimental Scale maneouvres for 3 days and 3 nights at a time and Brigade Scale maneouvres for 5 day and 5 nights at a time. Twice a year, in early June and late November, comprehensive training evaluations are conducted.

There are problems in Combined-Arms Training that have led the PLAN to attach officers from one branch to another for 6 months of practical experience.

In short, whatever the physical fitness and hand-to-hand combat abilities of the PLAN Marines, their professional standards may still be somewhat shaky, and not necessarily comparable to their Western counterparts.

The article hits it right in the head. The PLA in general has to raise salaries to attract the educated city folk. Much of their double digit budget raise is eaten up by salary increases, and I remember last year, one PLA general complained it ain't enough. The problem is raised because the income and living standards for the city folk are also rising.

By the high school in China is government provided.

crobato said:

The article hits it right in the head. The PLA in general has to raise salaries to attract the educated city folk. Much of their double digit budget raise is eaten up by salary increases, and I remember last year, one PLA general complained it ain't enough. The problem is raised because the income and living standards for the city folk are also rising.

By the high school in China is government provided.

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And there's something else as bad as that, and that General is well aware of it. Get this: it turns out that PLA officers, including PLAN, don't get full pensions and retirement benefits unless they make "Jun" (Group Army) Grade -a Major-General's billet. Senior Colonels and below obviously, have to compete furiously to reach Group Army grade just in order to get full retirement benefits. This could encourage careerism on steroids, not professionalism. Yeah, my eyes were opened a little.

As for high school, it is provided free (out of public revenues) for those who live in the city. Rural people and especially farmers have to pay high school fees (and for much public infrastructure), and out of their own pockets, and generally are not eligible for government-funded pensions and other publicly-funded benefits - I read an article by a county official in Shaanxi Province about this around 2 months ago - very surprising, very unexpected.

This is way off topic, but high-school is government supported but there are fees which often become burdensome, especially when corruption is added to the mix. However, another large obstacle to getting a high-school education is the competition for available spots. Not every junior-high graduate scores well enough in the high-school entrance exams to earn a place.

RedMercury said:

This is way off topic, but high-school is government supported but there are fees which often become burdensome, especially when corruption is added to the mix. However, another large obstacle to getting a high-school education is the competition for available spots. Not every junior-high graduate scores well enough in the high-school entrance exams to earn a place.

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Back in 1970s-1980s, Taiwan's public education is 1-9 and you had to take an exam to get into high school. Competition for college was fierce as few spots were avail at universities.

Moving forward by 20 years with a drastic drop in birth rate... today the college acceptance rate in Taiwan is something like 93% or 97%. You have to try really hard to flunk and not get into a college.

With below replacement level birth rate, the lack of spaces at HS is a problem that will eventually go away in China. Also, the PLA will be forced to raise its salaries & benefits to compete against civilian sector. It's simply not cost effective to spend millions to train good officers and pilots, when your pilots are bailing for higher-paying civilian airline jobs.

Pilot erosion to civilian airline jobs is actually a problem with every air force, even the US. In fact, its still a particular concern in the US. As a problem its also acute in the JASDF, ROCAF, and ROKAF, where it seemed that the air force is treated as a pilot school to a more lucrative civil airliner pilot job. And no doubt, growing to become a big problem in China now, which has an enormous airline sector. When the PLAAF started downsizing, the civil air sector was able to absorb all the older pilots though they really required a considerable amount of retraining. [My first flight with any PRC airline was sometime in the early 90s, and I thought the pilot took the 737 on a rather steep descent angle.] This situation may change now.

Another is the merchant marine, which is also recruiting off the naval personnel. I would think that the problem would be quite acute in China, where its huge merchant marine is 10X bigger than Great Britain's, an armada of over 2,300 ships alone.

There is no way, all around the world, that military pay or benefits, no matter how high the rank you have will beat that of the corporate sector. There is just no way. Even in the US, corporate pay > military pay. That is why being in the military is considered a service. You just have to keep relying on that thing called patriotism to bring in and keep people. Educational benefits and training is also one thing that brings in recruits, especially when people cannot afford the costs of college, which is plenty high in the US. The educational motivation may not be as strong in places where college is more affordable.

One perception I have with modern Chinese culture is the drive for financial and social status. And especially among the educated city folk, being in the armed forces isn't seen as a glamorous job. They prefer to be part of a big business or make a business of their own. So the PLA itself in general has an image problem that it needs to shed in order to attract modern educated Chinese youth, like starting getting rid of that Communist-Mao-Peasant look and try to look much more modern and professional. We know the PLA is trying to seriously rework its image, starting with many small things like its uniforms.

One child policy also bites. For the city folk they would want their only child to go the fast track of success, and that means preferably, being an engineer with a big corporation rather than be a PLA soldier. It can also make the population more casualty adverse, because parents become less willing to lose their only child. In fact, this will become a prevailing trend with all nations with aging populations and declining birth rates.

crobato said:

There is no way, all around the world, that military pay or benefits, no matter how high the rank you have will beat that of the corporate sector. There is just no way. Even in the US, corporate pay > military pay. That is why being in the military is considered a service. You just have to keep relying on that thing called patriotism to bring in and keep people. Educational benefits and training is also one thing that brings in recruits, especially when people cannot afford the costs of college, which is plenty high in the US. The educational motivation may not be as strong in places where college is more affordable.

One perception I have with modern Chinese culture is the drive for financial and social status. And especially among the educated city folk, being in the armed forces isn't seen as a glamorous job. They prefer to be part of a big business or make a business of their own. So the PLA itself in general has an image problem that it needs to shed in order to attract modern educated Chinese youth, like starting getting rid of that Communist-Mao-Peasant look and try to look much more modern and professional. We know the PLA is trying to seriously rework its image, starting with many small things like its uniforms.

One child policy also bites. For the city folk they would want their only child to go the fast track of success, and that means preferably, being an engineer with a big corporation rather than be a PLA soldier. It can also make the population more casualty adverse, because parents become less willing to lose their only child. In fact, this will become a prevailing trend with all nations with aging populations and declining birth rates.

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None of this is particularly conducive to promoting proffesionalism in the PLA in general, and the PLAN Marines in particular, (although, given their elite status, they should still attract proportionately more of those who are eagerly drawn to the military than more pedestrian units). Instead, this suggests a strong potential for inclination to careerism on the part of those who may join the PLA in general, and to a certain extent the PLAN Marines.

If Chinese society is developing along the lines that you describe, then the PLA is not only unlikely to be attractive to those they are most seeking to attract, but may have a hard time both retaining those that they do attract while restraining whatever tendencies that they may have towards a "My Carrer" mentality that seems to be so prevalent now in urban China. Not good for military professionalism at all, which requires a great deal of self-restraint and self-sacrifice.