Mengshi from the 78th Group Army on long-distance maneuvers...
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- Thread starter Jeff Head
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I'll do an ideal, yet realistic set up:
This is China's
One of such sub 5 ton howitzers, weighing 4.5 tons. 40 km range, but new propellants and shell types can improve on that ( as mentioned 56km is the benchmark)
Bare in mind the complete system weights 4.5 tons, a self propelled variant on Mountain Cat ATV is much lighter since it only use the barrel, breech and the spades, not the whole gun mount.
A 120mm L/44 barrel weights 1190 kg
The new german 130mm
L/51 (6.6m length) barrel weights 1.4 tons
A normal 155mm L/39 (6m length) should weight 1.4 to 1.5 tons, since the 130mm L/51 is smaller in diameter but more than 60cm longer, it should be roughly be the same weight as a 155mm L/39.
But we can further decrease the weight:
US tested 120mm weapon to replace Rheinmetall 120mm L/44 with 2500 pounds weight saving, of which 800 pounds (365 kg) is saving for the barrel alone.
The L/44 barrel weights 1190 kg according to wikipedia, the US version could reduce 800 pounds off of that by using carbon fibre and steel, but they still use steel as barrel material.
Replacing the steel bits with titanium and a titanium-ceramic liner reduces more weight, since titanium is ~40% less dense than steel.
Since even in a carbonfibre composite- steel barrel most of the weight and volume is still steel, we can reduce another total 25% of total barrel weight.
For the 120mm L/44 we get:
1190 kg - 365kg (800 lbs) = 825 kg
The ratio is:
1190 kg / 365 kg = 0.32. A reduction of almost on third in weight.
Then the barrel weights 825 kg, but we use Ti instead of steel, so only 75% * 825 kg= 619 kg for barrel weight.
If we apply the equation for the 155m L/39, so 1.5 tons, plus consider titanium instead of steel for barrel, we get:
1500 kg - (1500kg *0.32) = 1020 kg
1020 kg * 0.75 = 765kg barrel weight of the 155mm L/39.
A breech typically weights the same as the barrel or slighty more (100% to 110%)
So total 155mm L/39 gun weight:
765 kg + 110% * 765kg = 1607 kg
For Ammunition:
A 155mm L15A1 shell weights 43.3 kg
Propellant charges weights 12 kg for the charge type 6 DM 92
So shell + propellant = ~ 56 kg
So from what I get is:
Mountain Cat + 2 Crew + Fuel + Spades + ballistic computer + hydraulic loading assistant + perseonal gear + 1x AT rocket launcher + 1x MANPADS := 1.5 tons
155 L/39 Barrel weights 1.6 tons
20 rounds + propellant = 20 * 56 kg = 1.12 tons
Total weight 1.5t + 1.6t + 1.12t= 4.22 tons
So at 4.22 tons, you get the same weight as an M777 but you are self propelled, get 20 shots on the get go, can drive 90 km/h, have 800 km range onroad, 600 km off road. Part of Crew drives in the same vehicle with all their personal gear + 1x AT and 1x AA weapon, have an hydraulic loading assistant, slashing the crew size further, and are ready to fire in under a minute, ready to go after firing mission in less than 30 sec, plus you fit in the cargo bay of an Z-8L.
If it travels without ammunition weight is only slighty above 3 tons.
What do you think?
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The structure of a Mountain cat isn’t nearly strong enough for such a gun, you would have to reinforce the structure and then more powerful engine and at this point, it would be well above 3 tons without the gun, and much more than 5 tons with the gun and projectiles & propellant charges.
And it wouldn’t be as fast as you think, as a matter of fact, PLA tested all these (40CT/ATGM/107MM rocket/AA gun with manpads and EO ball.......) and few of them actually went into service.
Wheeled tractors are quiet sensitive to weight
3 tons for the chassis alone is quite a bit I think, even if reinforced.
The standard carrier fuelled up with 2 dudes weighs just under 1.4 tons.
We can make the howitzer lighter, when it doesnt shoot full charge projectile, but RA, thus no need for large structural enhancements of the chassis.
When not using full charges the breech and barrel can be alot thinner and thus the gun system loses signicant amount of weight.
The Mountain cat chassis can withstand a 120mm howitzer full charge shot, a minor charge shot from 155mm is physically achievable, the
rocket assist will give sufficient range (40+ km)
Through RA, some payload gets lost due to the rocket engine but it will be still alot more than the 120mm howitzers and certainly lot more than a 120mm mortar.
A 122mm D-30 howitzer has only 4kg explosives for traditional shells with 16km range.
Rocket assisted projectiles have 21km range but even less payload.
A 155mm Rocket assisted NATO round has 6.8 kg payload, 58% more bang than a traditional 122mm.
While also having 30+ km range. Since the Chinese have better rocket tech, 30+ km range is childs play for them.
And you certainly want that extra explosive mass per shell against armored formation or fortified positions.
Especially the PLA marines and air assaults since they would be on their own in the beginning regarding tactical level fire support.
PLA will never waste a PHL-16 shooting across the strait for some idiots in entrenched M60 platoon. but your average PLA Marine Captain certainly would lead better with their men, if those M60 would be taken care of without exposing his company.
Motorisation is a problem though, range and speed that I gave was indeed for the base mountain cat version, slapping 2 tons of gun and ammunition will certainly translate in less range, speed, acceleration.
And China so far makes good engines but not the best. Fear not though, BYD and the likes make excellent PHEV, such tech can certainly be utilised in the MIC.
By using a plug in electric motor, we can achieve peak power for enhanced acceleration and longer ranges.
Plus there was a study how a PHEV engine in a tank occupied less volume than a traditional diesel, somebody posted it here in the Army threads some days ago.
All the saved volume then can be spent for larger fuel tanks.
All in all this should not replace a PZL-05 or anything but offer a suitable air mobile replacement for the towed and semitautonomous 152mm and 155mm in service, with 80km range and 18km/h, which have severly limited mobility.
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A bit further digging US has experimented with the M776 Cannon, in service since atleast 1999.
The new systems name is Brutus
Light weight low recoil artillery system.
It weights ~13450 kg in total ( Gun + Chassis) of which are 11280kg for the truck alone, so gun weight of 2.170kg.
And bare in mind the M776 is quite a old system. Material Science was not there in 1999.
If we apply our Carbon Composite - Titanium Matrix formula from earlier:
(2170 kg - (2170 kg * 0.32) ) * 0.75 = 1107kg
We get total gun weight 1107 kg, that is
Barrel and Breech and Mounting.
Plus the low recoil mechanism reduces recoil of a full charge shot by 60%-65%.
So no need to significantly enhance chassis structural load bearing.
Which makes 155mm full charge viable again which contain 11.3 kg of explosives (Comp B). But it gets better since only the Chinese mastered CL-20 production, the single most powerful industrially producable non nuclear explosive rn, we can expect some smart 155mm shells with CL-20 filler, which is 42% more effective than Comp B weight wise and more dense, so 58% more effective in total.
And with Chinese propellant and Shells:
With base-bleed you then get 40km, V-Lap will deliver shells 54km down range.
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So, someone published some sort of specs for the DTC10 APDSFS round on reddit. Not sure if its legit and if shouldn't this info be classified
These numbers were reported by CCTV ages ago so even if it is a leak, it isn't really news. The only "news" is probably the fact that the shell is called DTC-10 and not 125-III or something else.
It claims it can pen a plate at 2000m, 680MM RHA,0 degree with probability of more then 90% , honestly I thought it would be more , if that is indeed true , doesn't it means that type 99 engaging an Abrams per say ,will need to get closer ? Similar to how allies had to operate with the 75mm Sherman.