PLA Coast Defense Forces

goldenpanda

Banned Idiot
So say that US forces were to achieve air superiority and control the seas in the area where the landings are to take place, the only heavy weapons the PLA could employ to oppose a landing are field pieces and weapons organic to infantry units, along with missiles?

Is this meant to ask if you can sail a battleship into Tianjin harbor? Probably you can, if naval and air are already decimated. However there is a lot of armor between Tianjin and Beijing (a historical invasion route). Even if Beijing is taken, China is just too much strategic depth to be taken with one stroke this way.

Probably you can try the battleship on Caracas--play conquistador all over again.
 

bigstick61

Junior Member
Is this meant to ask if you can sail a battleship into Tianjin harbor? Probably you can, if naval and air are already decimated. However there is a lot of armor between Tianjin and Beijing (a historical invasion route). Even if Beijing is taken, China is just too much strategic depth to be taken with one stroke this way.

Probably you can try the battleship on Caracas--play conquistador all over again.

Not specifically. It is essentially asking for a confirmation as to the types of heavier weaponry which can be used to resist landings. If such a landing were to be undertaken, it is probable that battleships would be used to provide pre-landing bombardment against the shore and inland and also to provide naval gunfire support to landing forces and forces as they move inland.

Lacking heavier weapons, this would make the job of warships of softening up the enemy defenses much easier, as the counterbattery fire the PLA could deliver would be limited in range and destructiveness to weapons firing projectiles no larger than 155mm and missiles. Missile batteries, due to the threat they impose, would likely be taken out with missiles or extended-range gun projectiles, with undiscovered ones being dealt with as they are discovered. Since warships could stay out of the range of the shore batteries and pulverize them, they can then move in and provide an accurate bombardment of other defenses, including air defenses, which would allow aircraft to participate as well.

However, against most countries, seeing as how the United States Navy is the only Navy with major-caliber guns, extended-range projectiles, and the force size and technology to do the above, PLA coast defenses would be more effective, and the 155mm guns would outrange most naval guns currently in existence, as would the 152mm and 130mm pieces. They would be able to engage enemy warships before coming into the range of naval guns, and this would also increase the survivability of the missile batteries in most cases, which would allow for effective coast defense. Softening up shore defenses would be much more difficult, and landing forces would face considerably more resistance.
 

goldenpanda

Banned Idiot
All this must assume 1) missiles won't penetrate BB armor (you can't really preempt a mobile land launcher), 2) small craft and sub threat to BB are eliminated using support ships, and 3) the support ships are themselves protected from coastal missiles/guns. Considering this chain of requirements, not to mention the need for air superiority, I can only see the BB adding a bit of firepower afer the beach has already been won.
 

bigstick61

Junior Member
All this must assume 1) missiles won't penetrate BB armor (you can't really preempt a mobile land launcher), 2) small craft and sub threat to BB are eliminated using support ships, and 3) the support ships are themselves protected from coastal missiles/guns. Considering this chain of requirements, not to mention the need for air superiority, I can only see the BB adding a bit of firepower afer the beach has already been won.

It is highly unlikely that any of the misiles the PLA coast defense forces have would penetrate the armor of an Iowa-class battleship, and if they did, the extent of damage to the vitals would be minimal due to the design of the armor protection, which coincidentally, is much better configured to deal with missiles than older armor configurations, although this is not the rationale behind the design. The main risk is to exposed sensors, communications eqipment, and weapons directors, which can significantly affect the ship's ability to carry out its mission, although blast hardening of electronics (not done on any other warships) and a combination of systems redundancy and dispersion would minimize the extent of the damage.

This, of course, assumes that the ship and its escorts were incapable of defending against a missile attack, which is highly unlikely. Escorts would include at least one AEGIS-equipped warship, and typically consists of one CG and a mix of 3 DDs, DDGs, or FFGs. It is also likely that in the event of a reactivation, the ships would be modernized in accordance with an updated version of the modernization plans that were sheduled for the ships before the budget cuts of the 1990s forced them to be decommissioned. It included the installation of considerable AAW weaponry. The ships also currently possess CIWS systems and Stingers, as well as chaff launchers (which successfully diverted a C-802 durng Desert Storm), chaff-loaded projectiles, AA projectiles, and electronic warfare systems. I would say that should a battery fire prior to detection and destruction, it is unlikely to cause significant damage. There would also be carrier escort as well, and there would therefore be a CAP which could shoot down missiles as well.

Small craft and sub threat would likely be minimalized for such an operation to take place, and there would be a judicious use of escorts and aircraft to defend against such threats, as well as submarines. There is a risk, but not an unacceptable one. There would be a considerable amount of platforms in the area equipped for ASW and surface warfare, as they would be needed to protect the large amount of shipping which would be built up for the invasion, such as amphibious vessels, auxiliaries, and capital ships. Such an operation would only be likely to be undertaken if the PLAN was weakened considerably and would be limited in its response.

The escorts, of course, would be able to defend against missile attack, as I have already mentioned. It is likely that by this point, the extended-range 16" projectiles would have already been placed into service, seeing as how the earlier design was near that stage when the program was cancelled due to the deactivations. If these or any of the longer-ranged ER projectiles were out of range (unlikely), Tomahawks or SLAM Harpoons could be used to attack the missile batteries until they were within gun range. Once within gun range, targets could be engaged from a distance. As the longer range systems are destroyed, the ships could move in, but still remain beyond the range of shore batteries, which cannot mach the range of 16" guns. Towards the end of the bombardment, it is likely that the group would move further in, which would allow for the destruction of the heavier bunkers and allow medium-caliber batteries on the battleship, its escorts, and other warships assigned to the task to engage the targets ashore and provide closer support to landing forces with the smaller guns should it be needed.

If the PLAAF and PLAN have lost effective control of the skies and of the sea, I don't see how the coast defense forces of the PLA could deal with such an assault, which would likely also be augmented by aircraft once AA batteries are dealt with. They can be pulverized from beyond their maximum gun range. The missiles also would not be too difficult to deal with. I think that the PLA would likely resort to the use of ballistic missiles against the invasion fleet before they got within range. However, if that were not to sufficiently succeed, I don't think that the PLA could do much to prevent the initial landings and a beachhead from being established. It would all likley depend upon actions further inland, beyond the effective range of heavy naval surface fire support.
 

goldenpanda

Banned Idiot
The point I try to make here is, your BB isn't going to be what causes PLA to lose air and sea control. It just isn't the most crucial platform for what you're trying to achieve.

In 1990 USAF couldn't locate scuds in open desert. A mobile c701/c802 in densely populated eastern seaboard is as good as invisible. If you can actually take them out, you'll be able to take out any coastal battery too. Either way you won't be winning because you brought along BB's. A bigger coastal gun will not be decisive.

Btw China has 12,000km of coastline. Probably the twin 130mm's are in an area like Tianjin, as a delay weapon against amphibious vehicles, while armor forms up behind them.
 

goldenpanda

Banned Idiot
Some more pictures of the type 76 coastal artillery

507381.jpg

Looks like it slides out from the cave to fire

200612261032016627.jpg


200612261032535952.jpg


507380.jpg

article says 6 shots can mission kill a 3000 ton ship


This
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
gives some more info. Adapted from the 130mm on the Luda, which is itself based on an earlier type 66 version. Another sources gives the entire system weight as 80 tons, so the coastal version could be armored. It's radar controlled with a manual mode.

Taiwan really needs this, especially the coming out of cave part! sinodefence gives specs for the ship version: 130L58, 17rds/min, 29km range. Except BB this will simply rip any ship apart.
 

Attachments

  • 507382.jpg
    507382.jpg
    54.9 KB · Views: 19

bigstick61

Junior Member
The point I try to make here is, your BB isn't going to be what causes PLA to lose air and sea control. It just isn't the most crucial platform for what you're trying to achieve.

In 1990 USAF couldn't locate scuds in open desert. A mobile c701/c802 in densely populated eastern seaboard is as good as invisible. If you can actually take them out, you'll be able to take out any coastal battery too. Either way you won't be winning because you brought along BB's. A bigger coastal gun will not be decisive.

Btw China has 12,000km of coastline. Probably the twin 130mm's are in an area like Tianjin, as a delay weapon against amphibious vehicles, while armor forms up behind them.

I'm not saying that the battleship alone is what causes a Chinese loss of sea and air control, although it can certainly contribute to that, especially in the sea control area. For prepping a landing site, a battleship has no equal. They have been engaged by mobile C-802 launchers in the past. In this regard, there are various tools they can utilize to discover the missile positions. They have 8 UAVs at their disposal which carry infrared and standard cameras, and are used for reconaissance, battle-damage assessment, gunfire spotting, and such. During the Gulf War, the battleships used the infrared cameras to discover hidden enemy positions, and then used the UAVs to spot for the 16" guns. I'm quite certain that the same thing cold be done in this situation. Also, the launchers would have to be used to have any effect, and when they launch, they reveal their positions.

Once the missile sites are neutralized, what caliber coast defense guns the defenders have and how well they can use them can be a decisive factor. A gun which can engage a target such as battleship within its entire gunnery range, or beyond, and which can penetrate its armor and which is present in sufficient numbers and has good fire control and a proficient crew, can be used to repel the bombardment force, and any landing. When a battery can be engaged from a range it could not hope to reach, it really has no real effect. It cannot prevent a landing or repel a superior bombardment force.

article says 6 shots can mission kill a 3000 ton ship


This article gives some more info. Adapted from the 130mm on the Luda, which is itself based on an earlier type 66 version. Another sources gives the entire system weight as 80 tons, so the coastal version could be armored. It's radar controlled with a manual mode.

Taiwan really needs this, especially the coming out of cave part! sinodefence gives specs for the ship version: 130L58, 17rds/min, 29km range. Except BB this will simply rip any ship apart.

Few American warships are 3,000 tons or less full load displacement. I agree that on more modern warships, it can certainly wreak havoc regardless. The guns can outrange most naval artillery. The naval guns which outrange it won't be particularly effective against the gun at such ranges. And I'm certain that the mounting is armored, but it can probably only protect against medium-caliber or smaller HC rounds, and glancing blows from medium-caliber AP rounds except those fired at long ranges which it could probably defeat, and minor-caliber AP shells. The naval guns which outrange it would not be able to destroy these guns with AP or Common or HC shells, although they could do some damage to field batteries. But they would be outranged by the PLA's 155mm field pieces. Most modern warships lack any meaningful gun armament, have poor systems redundancy, and are over-reliant on power and electronic systems. I can definitely see these batteries mission-killing such warships, which essentially means that they are too damaged to be able to fulfill their tasks. Older platforms could probably take a little more damage. As for the ROC, they do have, to my knowledge, 127mm coast defense guns which can be fitted in caves, barbette mountings, casemates, and such, although I don't know much about them beyond that.
 

goldenpanda

Banned Idiot
They have been engaged by mobile C-802 launchers in the past.

No?

Once the missile sites are neutralized

A *much tougher* feat than taking out static, 12" coastal gun with a single well aimed bunker buster.

Prior to PGM's the 12" gun might have been survivable, but the battleship would not have been survivable without Aegis. We can see the missile strategy made sense both now and then, albeit for different reasons.

I'd be curious which system the ROC 127mm was based on. In their last exercise they showed Pattons firing from beaches, but didn't show any coastal guns.
 

bigstick61

Junior Member

The USS Missouri (BB-63) was attacked by a mobile C-802 missile launcher which fired two missiles at the ship. One was successfully diverted by chaff, and the other was shot down by two Sea Dart missiles from the HMS Gloucester. This was during the 1st Persian Gulf War. The launcher was subsequently destroyed.

A *much tougher* feat than taking out static, 12" coastal gun with a single well aimed bunker buster.

Prior to PGM's the 12" gun might have been survivable, but the battleship would not have been survivable without Aegis. We can see the missile strategy made sense both now and then, albeit for different reasons.

With good air defenses, the fixed gun can be survivable, especially if it is in a good position, such as in a cave or well-made casemate. PGMs still have to be dropped by aircraft which are vulnerable to air-defense weaponry. While recent experience for the most part makes it seem like it is otherwise, I have no doubt that the PLA's air defenses are far superior to those of the Iraqis. The battleship could be survivable without AEGIS, so long as its escorts have good air defense systems which are effecive against potential threats. Any warship without good AAW systems is vulnerable to air attack. I enevr said that taking out missile batteries would be easy, but given the tools at the battleship's disposal, it wouldn't be exceedingly difficult.

I'd be curious which system the ROC 127mm was based on. In their last exercise they showed Pattons firing from beaches, but didn't show any coastal guns.

I think it may be based off of a naval gun.
 

goldenpanda

Banned Idiot
Iraq fired the HY-2 (silkworm) during first Gulf war. c802 were not exported at that time.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


On one hand you say a fixed gun "can be survivable", but destroying mobile launchers shouldn't be "exceedingly difficult. I can admire your advocacy, but your logic just doesn't fly. The fact is, these missiles have never been pre-empted, even Hezbollah got to fire off theirs.
 
Top