PLA Anti-Air Missile (SAM) systems

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Well he's sort of right from his own perspective. The first HQ-9 was heavily influenced by the S-300PMU and most of it was a direct copy. China eventually changed the radars units a little and @Tam should be able to explain more of the details since he's familiar. Since then, the HQ-9 series have evolved to become something quite different from where the S-300 evolved, S-400.

Without PLA buying and reverse engineering S-300, the first HQ-9 (or whatever PLA's long range SAM would be called) would likely be something very different. Even the missiles were nearly identical when the "family line" branched off. Not sure why this is important though.

The rocket frames of the HQ-9 appear similar to the 5V55 missile used with the earlier S-300 complex, but it is said that the fuel used on the HQ-9, at least on the later versions, is the one used on the KT-1, or the solid fuel rocket boosters used to launch satellites to space.

Much like the HQ-16 started from the Buk, the HQ-9 started from a common root with the S-300 but has deviated from the S-300 in terms of guidance, electronics and sensors.

The HT-233 fire control radar is similar to the Russian Flaplid and Tombstone in concept, but appears different in the frequency range, using C-band instead of X-band, like the MPQ-53 of the Patriot. However, the MPQ-53 is designed to work as an all in one unit, although capable of cooperation with other radars. The HT-233 is designed with work with other radars foremost, like Flaplid, but also like Flaplid, it can work on its own if the paired search radars are taken down. If the HT-233 engagement radar of the HQ-9 works on C-band, this would mean its TVM guidance system would work on this band, like the Patriot missile does. (IMO this data needs to be revisited.) In commercial brochures of the FD-2000 export version of the HQ-9, it is also mentioned the missile guidance system having an active capability.

Both HQ-9 and S-300 systems rely on entirely different sets of search radars of which there are a handful and not going to say too much about them as it will TLDR. Similarities in these radars are more due to working on the same common principles of design rather than copying the other. Needless to say, the Big Bird search radar used with the S-300PMU, one of the more commonly used search radars used with the S-300 complex has a very unique spaced reflective type phase array design, and even though this radar unit was part of the bundle sold by Russia to China's S-300 purchases with China having a number of these samples, this unit is not copied.

bigbird_prev01.jpgbd9dc55d-81cc-4e2b-a544-42b8e6a4d460Large.jpg

Instead, the HQ-9 system adopted an AESA for one of its search radars, this the Type 305A.

sr2410c-vehicle.png
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
From what I saw the missiles clearly have different dimensions and fin configurations so I don’t know where this direct copy comes from.
View attachment 62212

The picture there shows the 48N6E missile which is used later with the S-300PMU. The Russians also sold this missile to the Chinese in their later S-300 purchases, and this is the missile on the Type 051C destroyer.

However the HQ-9 corresponds more to the earlier and smaller 5V55K or 5V55U missile, which is what the Chinese may have gotten in their first shipments of the S-300P. It is similar to the 48N6E but is slightly smaller.

S-300P_firing_5V55K_missile.jpg
 

Sleepyjam

Junior Member
Registered Member
The picture there shows the 48N6E missile which is used later with the S-300PMU. The Russians also sold this missile to the Chinese in their later S-300 purchases, and this is the missile on the Type 051C destroyer.

However the HQ-9 corresponds more to the earlier and smaller 5V55K or 5V55U missile, which is what the Chinese may have gotten in their first shipments of the S-300P. It is similar to the 48N6E but is slightly smaller.

View attachment 62215
The fins, thrust vectoring and the overall dimensions are still noticeably different than on the hq9, the external difference between 5v55k and 48n6e isn’t much besides size.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
The fins, thrust vectoring and the overall dimensions are still noticeably different than on the hq9, the external difference between 5v55k and 48n6e isn’t much besides size.

Depending how you read, 48N6E is about 7.2 to 7.5 meters. 5V55 wihch there are four to five variants is about 7 meters, while HQ-9, depending who you read, is either 6.5 or 6.8 meters. Difference in fins is minor, and there are missile families with considerable fin difference in design such as the Buk-Shtil missile family. Not sure if there is any difference in size between HQ-9 and HQ-9B.
 

Sleepyjam

Junior Member
Registered Member
Depending how you read, 48N6E is about 7.2 to 7.5 meters. 5V55 wihch there are four to five variants is about 7 meters, while HQ-9, depending who you read, is either 6.5 or 6.8 meters. Difference in fins is minor, and there are missile families with considerable fin difference in design such as the Buk-Shtil missile family. Not sure if there is any difference in size between HQ-9 and HQ-9B.
Of course the Buk would have a different design since it’s a much shorter ranged missile, they aren’t even in the same class. If you compare the PAC-2 to 48n6e and 5v55 they look similar as well with the PAC-2 having slightly larger fins. Of course that’s just the external stuff, internally there are sensors/electronics/rocket motors/fuel system/ differences. Not to mention the performance differences.
 

Jono

Junior Member
Registered Member
one request for Tam who is an expert in Radar technology.
Could you please educate and entertain a simpleton like me and tell me in a short and succinct summary what S band, C band and X bands
are? and their major applications please, if you don't mind.
thanks in advance.:)
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
The Chinese must have developed a secret time machine to base the HQ9 off the S300 when HQ9 development started long before China got its first S300.

The only thing that the HQ9 copied from the S300 is the launch mechanise, including the launch tubes.

All the claims of the HQ9 being a S300 copy are pretty much just that shallow. Oh look, the tubs look the same so what is in them must also be identical.
 

nugroho

Junior Member
If HQ 9 is comparable with S300, Then What China possesses to compare with S400 and S 500 ( for ballistic missile ) ? Never hear again of HQ 19,and HQ 29.
 

Japhethsdecendent

New Member
Registered Member
Are you saying HQ9 is the copy of S-300 Far from it In Turkey missile competition in 2013 FD2000 a dumb down version of HQ-9 score perfect score of 5 missile 5 hit beating patriot, Aster 30 and S-300
But because pressure from US and EU and Chinese refusal to give the source , in the contract was scuttled
Not a complete copy, I'm sure there were modifications and especially hq9B must behave differently but some seem to be claiming these sams didn't have inspiration from other systems which seems dubious. hq9 has been around and been upgraded enough that I don't think it has the same performance as s-300. I don't know the details of the competition
quote from the article “Chinese sources credit Chinese engineers with developing the HQ-9 on their own.” While the so called western source is from
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And supposedly they copied the Patriot too according to your source lol
And that's not possible because?
 

Sleepyjam

Junior Member
Registered Member
Not a complete copy, I'm sure there were modifications and especially hq9B must behave differently but some seem to be claiming these sams didn't have inspiration from other systems which seems dubious. hq9 has been around and been upgraded enough that I don't think it has the same performance as s-300. I don't know the details of the competition

And that's not possible because?
Because of no evidence, pure speculation. There has always been biases and incompetence in western sources with regards to China.
 
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