PLA Anti-Air Gun systems

Derpy

Junior Member
Registered Member
The Swedish cv90 has a 40mm cannon that can perform double duty as a AA gun with smart rounds, I wonder if it's viable for China to take the same approach instead of the dual smaller gun/Gatling gun approach.
The standard CV90 IFV have very limited AA capability against anything moving.
The CV 90 Lvkv is a lot more capable of course but that is a dedicated anti air system not an IFV. I remember reading (years ago) about some exercises against American Apaches and They win like 9 times out of 10 when dueling them.
 

yeetmyboi

New Member
Registered Member
The standard CV90 IFV have very limited AA capability against anything moving.
IMO it should be noted that the 4th gen CV90 does have
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. Bofors 3P ( or AHEAD in CV9035s) can be provided as a quick retrofit for platoon-level AD.

P/s: my 1st post and realized how difficult is the formatting lol
 

by78

General
Loading rounds into a PGZ-09.

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JonnyJalapeno

New Member
Registered Member
How viable would be an IFV with an AESA array similar in shape like PGZ-09 search radar above, but the array would vertically hid inside the turret using servos? The vehicle could then act in dual role as SPAAG/IFV thanks to radar being well protected inside turret, without the need for tracking radar at the front.
 

Hitomi

Junior Member
Registered Member
How viable would be an IFV with an AESA array similar in shape like PGZ-09 search radar above, but the array would vertically hid inside the turret using servos? The vehicle could then act in dual role as SPAAG/IFV thanks to radar being well protected inside turret, without the need for tracking radar at the front.
Just let IFVs be IFVs, the current FCS tracking to use their gun against aircraft are just a added bonus for their use against ground units and already sufficient. Why add unnecessary weight, size and cost to make them SPAAGs vehicles, not to mention a SPAAG viability in modern warfare keeps dropping as missiles get even longer ranged. Also another thing I would be concerned with would also be the crew training requirements for your new IFV/SPAAG crews.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
Just let IFVs be IFVs, the current FCS tracking to use their gun against aircraft are just a added bonus for their use against ground units and already sufficient. Why add unnecessary weight, size and cost to make them SPAAGs vehicles, not to mention a SPAAG viability in modern warfare keeps dropping as missiles get even longer ranged. Also another thing I would be concerned with would also be the crew training requirements for your new IFV/SPAAG crews.
IFVs are consumables. Soviet approach to them are the correct one. Make them as affordable as possible and available to many. When a real war starts, these vehicles will be destroyed extremely quickly. They are usually placed in most vulnerable positions in front lines, and tend to have poor protection due to need to carry crew.

SPAAG on other hand are very expensive due to radar and etc. Perhaps we can get around it if there is actual spaag feeding firing information via network to IFV, I can't see how IFV perform SPAAG role without making itself too expensive.
 

JonnyJalapeno

New Member
Registered Member
That's a good idea, a SPAAG feeding info to IFV and the vehicle using that information where to point the gun with appropriate lead. Sounds computatively expensive, considering different position of IFVs vs the SPAAG and the target.
 

yeetmyboi

New Member
Registered Member
IFVs are consumables. Soviet approach to them are the correct one. Make them as affordable as possible and available to many. When a real war starts, these vehicles will be destroyed extremely quickly. They are usually placed in most vulnerable positions in front lines, and tend to have poor protection due to need to carry crew.
For a mass mobilization army in the 70s that is fine. But the PLA is not that. They have limited manpower just like everyone else. And frankly modern clean-sheet IFVs arent affordable because they still need a weapon and fire control for that, plus comms, navs, networking, some sort of remote counter-mining system, APS, propulsion/engine, situational awareness enabler(s), and then actual materials for the chassis and armour. That's not taking into account whatever the PLA is looking at for their future IFVs but it's guaranteed to be expensive.

So I guess that you can make a modern BMP-2 if you have an endless stream of ultranationalistic brainwashed conscripts, but that's just going to make any mass armoured assault a human wave attack thats doomed to fail. The BMP-2 was so cheap because it was literally crap for its time ( active 1st gen NV, no FCS, reuse BMP-1 chassis which has no room for large growth, borderline 0 armour). Making that in the 21st century is just asking to be attritioned to death when any competent military would be fielding ICMs for their tubes that would clean up IFV companies like roomba through rubbish, or a FOGM spam from 50-100km away that your arty cant CBAT because the enemy is thrusting into your lines with something like Assault Breaker or massing SDB swarms while your C2 centers is a mess because the guys that are attacking are screaming for help. And then trying to make it modern runs into rising costs because the FCS cost so much ( you need thermals anyway), the hull cost so much ( cant really have an IFV that can be penned by GPMG fire or break apart after a 500g mine) or secured electronics and literally everything else.

You better spend your money on making attritable UGVs that can replace your MBTs and MICVs in the frontline, and put the human in a MBT-derived MICV because you need protection for the guys operating those radios, UGVs, UAVs, etc. Robotics warfare is attritional as Ukraine have shown, and robots can be procured en masse but not humans.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
For a mass mobilization army in the 70s that is fine. But the PLA is not that. They have limited manpower just like everyone else. And frankly modern clean-sheet IFVs arent affordable because they still need a weapon and fire control for that, plus comms, navs, networking, some sort of remote counter-mining system, APS, propulsion/engine, situational awareness enabler(s), and then actual materials for the chassis and armour. That's not taking into account whatever the PLA is looking at for their future IFVs but it's guaranteed to be expensive.

So I guess that you can make a modern BMP-2 if you have an endless stream of ultranationalistic brainwashed conscripts, but that's just going to make any mass armoured assault a human wave attack thats doomed to fail. The BMP-2 was so cheap because it was literally crap for its time ( active 1st gen NV, no FCS, reuse BMP-1 chassis which has no room for large growth, borderline 0 armour). Making that in the 21st century is just asking to be attritioned to death when any competent military would be fielding ICMs for their tubes that would clean up IFV companies like roomba through rubbish, or a FOGM spam from 50-100km away that your arty cant CBAT because the enemy is thrusting into your lines with something like Assault Breaker or massing SDB swarms while your C2 centers is a mess because the guys that are attacking are screaming for help. And then trying to make it modern runs into rising costs because the FCS cost so much ( you need thermals anyway), the hull cost so much ( cant really have an IFV that can be penned by GPMG fire or break apart after a 500g mine) or secured electronics and literally everything else.

You better spend your money on making attritable UGVs that can replace your MBTs and MICVs in the frontline, and put the human in a MBT-derived MICV because you need protection for the guys operating those radios, UGVs, UAVs, etc. Robotics warfare is attritional as Ukraine have shown, and robots can be procured en masse but not humans.
Affordable IFV today will be nothing like affordable IFV in the 70s. Do not confuse the two. Thermals and computer chips are really cheap these days. There is also no requirements for using BMP-1 like chassis either because China don't have tens of thousands of them lying around. Even with massive Soviet stockpile Ukraine find itself running out of vehicles before running out of men.

The alternative to affordable IFV is to go all in at protection Israel style. It is costlier but now strong enough against attrition. It does sacrifice a well armed turret to save space and money.

Either way seems against SPAAG's design of expensive and fragile.
 

yeetmyboi

New Member
Registered Member
Affordable IFV today will be nothing like affordable IFV in the 70s.
Yes, because today is not 1970. Your point is?
Thermals and computer chips are really cheap these days.
Suprisng why the PLA havent gone all out on their digital NODs or having every guy with a XM157 equivalent then. Oh wait, because commercial specs doesn't scale to military specs. This kind of "cheap tech" thinking is why Russia is failing so miserably when they decided that troops using their Huaweis or whatever they sell in Russia these days is better than a secured, EW-proof multiband radio and then got blasted by NATO ELINT assets. Tldr what applies to the public doesn't apply to the military, hence why DJI drones is continuously failing when RuAF decided maybe their 80s-era jammers still have some use and NATO is moving to milspec drones which are inherently more expensive. Otherwise every PLA arty battalions would have thousands of loitering munitions already.
There is also no requirements for using BMP-1 like chassis either because China don't have tens of thousands of them lying around.
Yes, there is the ZSD-89A chassis instead. What a convenience, why dont the PLA droned them into
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or
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instead of building more of them?
Even with massive Soviet stockpile Ukraine find itself running out of vehicles before running out of men.
Ukraine never had many functional vehicle to begin with...
The alternative to affordable IFV is to go all in at protection Israel style. It is costlier but now strong enough against attrition.
Yes, and every bridge you pass is another wreck. Though for the PLAGF who should never deploy their ABCTs in an expeditionary fashion that would be useful I suppose. Either that or you go with FCS MGV style of modular protection. 20ton baseline with growth potential for Abrams-front-armour level all around (this is something I found from another forum so take it with a big grain of salt though). Either applique composite or KE-optimized (SL)ERA ie Rafael Armour Shield. APS(es) will deal with the slow movers anyway.
It does sacrifice a well armed turret to save space and money.
The IDF is pursuing a
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with a new turret that has Trophy intergrated. Given how most current AFVs has APS as a retrofit it seems to be the preferable solution. Regardless the role of an IFV is to provide fire support for other engaged elements, this kind of requirement, and thus, armanent can massively change depending on the type of war the PLAGF is expecting ( asymmetric/near-peer all out).
Either way seems against SPAAG's design of expensive and fragile.
If anything the conflict in Ukraine has demonstrated the need for intergrated unit-level CRAM/C-UAS given the proliferation of cheap drones that can carry a substantial HEDP warhead. 2S38/T-15 with AU-220M or CV9040 Mk4 all proved the feasibility of mounting a dual-role armanent on an IFV with an acceptable magazine depth. Further back in time and we have 105mm MRAAS with 105mm ramjet sabot and sensor-fuzed multirole, even further there was the ARES XM274 that could shoot both APFSDS and HE-VT rounds. Targeting can be done by purely EO sensors, although cueing from APS radar or mounting an AESA FCR is entirely valid.
 
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