PLA Air Force news, pics and videos

by78 · Feb 26, 2020

A confirmation that Chengdu has restarted production in some capacity, but it does not mention what the project in question is.

Summary: AVIC has dispatched a team from Shenyang to Chengdu to ensure the smooth final delivery of a certain aircraft. The team set out on the 23rd and arrived at Chengdu on the 26th.

SinoSoldier · Feb 26, 2020

by78 said:
AVIC has dispatched a team from Shenyang to Chengdu

Interesting. Maybe it's to do with the carrier-based fighter project which is said to be sort of a joint effort by both institutes.

Anyone know of any civilian projects that involve both of these design offices?

Inst · Feb 26, 2020

nitrojc said:
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Here's an article (in Chinese) about the J-20. Headline: "性能差异过大，歼20无法代替苏57，可同时装备这两款战机"
Literal translation: "Large difference in capabilities, [rendering it] impossible for the J-20 to replace the Su-57, but both fighters will be equipped at the same time [by the PLA]"

Any thoughts on this?

Also, this is my first post - am I using the right thread?

The main argument for the Su-57 in PLAAF service is cost; while the J-20, barring the engines and laser dazzler, will be much more technologically advanced, the Su-57 is advertising ridiculously low production prices.

The Su-57 is dogfight optimized, likewise, while the J-20 is closer to a Sixth-Gen MiG-31; the J-20 can dogfight if it needs to but it squanders its advantages in doing so. If you feel insulted, remember that the F-22 is designed along a similar paradigm; dogfighting ability if needed, but it prefers BVR.

Deino · Feb 27, 2020

by78 said:
A confirmation that Chengdu has restarted production in some capacity, but it does not mention what the project in question is.

Summary: AVIC has dispatched a team from Shenyang to Chengdu to ensure the smooth final delivery of a certain aircraft. The team set out on the 23rd and arrived at Chengdu on the 26th.

Any idea, what type is being co-developed from SAC & CAC??

ougoah · Feb 27, 2020

The J-20 doesn't even have a gun. It's not a dogfighter even if it can handle the turns with the best fourth gen-ers. Su-57 looks like it absolutely dominates WVR turns. If it gets the full VLO surface and build treatments, it'll be a beast of a 5th gen fighter... provided all other equipment are top notch. Still doubt PLAAF will ever buy Su-57. Maybe after India signs so that Russia definitely makes that sale to the Indians and then China will swoop in full of surprise and order a few squadrons.

Once other potential customers see PLAAF buy Su-57s, they'd probably have all the convincing they need to jump all in. Maybe China and Russia can cooperate on improving the Su-57 and further decreasing its cost? Basically have China become the partner "FGFA" nation. Perhaps AVIC have a lot more to offer the partnership but will certainly demand more from Sukhoi when it comes to production.

J-20 overlaps in capability though and J-31 would be a far better low cost alternative... better yet, PLAAF shouldn't bother with low cost alternatives with a completely different engine. Maybe a few squadrons of off the shelf Su-57 will more than fill any gaps for specialty roles like the Su-35 does... it'll also get an insight into what India will likely go for in the future. AMCA? USAF 7th gen will be flying before that ever reaches service.

by78 · Feb 27, 2020

Deino said:
Any idea, what type is being co-developed from SAC & CAC??

The article is very vague. It alludes to two distinct products: A) a certain product that is about to be handed over, and B) also products that have already been handed over. SAC personnel were transferred to CAC to make sure product A) is on schedule AND to provide maintenance and other services for product B).

For all I know, A) and B) could be airframes of the same model, with some in the final production stage and others already finished. Could simply be J-20s and/or J-10Cs, maybe? Looks like CAC is short on people, so some SAC experts have been dispatched by AVIC to lend a hand.

stannislas · Feb 27, 2020

Deino said:
Any idea, what type is being co-developed from SAC & CAC??

Well, SAC and CAC are all subsidiaries of AVIC, so they share IPs, help each other all the times. In fact, rumor suggests J-20 tails part was designed by SAC, and fly controls system for J-16 was originated from CAC.

so, yeah, could be anything...

Inst · Feb 27, 2020

ougoah said:
The J-20 doesn't even have a gun. It's not a dogfighter even if it can handle the turns with the best fourth gen-ers. Su-57 looks like it absolutely dominates WVR turns. If it gets the full VLO surface and build treatments, it'll be a beast of a 5th gen fighter... provided all other equipment are top notch. Still doubt PLAAF will ever buy Su-57. Maybe after India signs so that Russia definitely makes that sale to the Indians and then China will swoop in full of surprise and order a few squadrons.

Once other potential customers see PLAAF buy Su-57s, they'd probably have all the convincing they need to jump all in. Maybe China and Russia can cooperate on improving the Su-57 and further decreasing its cost? Basically have China become the partner "FGFA" nation. Perhaps AVIC have a lot more to offer the partnership but will certainly demand more from Sukhoi when it comes to production.

J-20 overlaps in capability though and J-31 would be a far better low cost alternative... better yet, PLAAF shouldn't bother with low cost alternatives with a completely different engine. Maybe a few squadrons of off the shelf Su-57 will more than fill any gaps for specialty roles like the Su-35 does... it'll also get an insight into what India will likely go for in the future. AMCA? USAF 7th gen will be flying before that ever reaches service.

The question isn't whether the Su-57 is any good; it's likely the least stealthiest of the 5th gens. The question is whether it's cheap. You disagree with me on the cost of the J-20, but if the Su-57 can be had for half or less the price of a J-20, it's a good skeet fighter that can cover for the J-20's deficiencies.

I also disagree as to whether the absence of a gun excludes the J-20 from being a dogfighter. The gun is a backup weapon; like a pistol for an officer or a knife for a line infantryman. IIRC, many guns have less than 5 seconds worth of ammo when it comes to fighter autocannons. The issue simply is, it takes one missile to knock out a J-20, the same as one missile to knock out a Su-57. But if the Su-57 is cheaper, it's automatically a better dogfighter as it'll take two missiles to knock out the same cost in Su-57s compared to a J-20.

ZeEa5KPul · Feb 27, 2020

ougoah said:
The J-20 doesn't even have a gun. It's not a dogfighter even if it can handle the turns with the best fourth gen-ers.

Having a gunport means it's intended to have a gun. If it's not a dogfighter, what do you propose it do when confronted by an enemy stealth fighter where BVR is useless?

ougoah said:
Su-57 looks like it absolutely dominates WVR turns.

What about it makes it look that way to you?

ougoah said:
If it gets the full VLO surface and build treatments, it'll be a beast of a 5th gen fighter... provided all other equipment are top notch.

Getting the full VLO treatment essentially means the thing has to be redesigned top to bottom. Before being a beast of an anything, it should get this fixed

ougoah said:
Once other potential customers see PLAAF buy Su-57s, they'd probably have all the convincing they need to jump all in.

Why should China do this free advertisement for Russia? What's in it for China beyond getting a 5th gen in name only fighter that's going to be problematic synching with the rest of the fleet?

ougoah said:
Maybe a few squadrons of off the shelf Su-57 will more than fill any gaps for specialty roles like the Su-35 does...

What's the Su-35 been doing beyond getting its teeth punched down its throat in Chinese DACT exercises?

ougoah said:
it'll also get an insight into what India will likely go for in the future.

India is geostrategically irrelevant and a second spent thinking about what it will do in the present or future is a second wasted.

Deino · Feb 27, 2020

Guys ... once again, leave out these stupid Su-57 in PLAAF service speculations!
These what if discussions based on several unproven hypothesis have nothing to do with PLAAF-news.

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