Pentagon accuses Chinese vessels of harassing U.S. ship

Rising China

Junior Member
it seem alot people still compare this incident vs soviet era incident. but china is not soviet, and it will do thing differently.

as for EEZ who cares, "the might is right", doesn't matter US is wrong or not, it has the technology and power to do things, while china doesn't have that now.

:china::china::china:
Whether or not China has the technology is still unknown to the U.S side. Do not jump into conclusion too quickly. Beside, it would be counter productive to walk into the financial institution that have been supporting you financially for years and start verbal abusing the banking manager. Very bad move!!!
 

Rising China

Junior Member
:nono::nono::nono:

March 11, 2009
China: The Next Big Enemy?
The domestic politics of the new Sinophobia
by Justin Raimondo

Those Chinese sailors who "harassed" a U.S. military vessel lingering perilously close to a Chinese base on Hainan Island, in the South China Sea, reportedly stripped down to their underwear when our sailors turned water hoses on them. Maybe the shower facilities on Chinese fishing vessels – it was fishing trawlers, not military gunboats, that met the Americans on China's doorstep – are insufficient, or maybe the Chinese were mooning us. I'm inclined to think the latter. In any case, Sunday's incident ratchets up tensions with China – which have been roiled in recent weeks, not only by a series of similar incidents, but also on account of issues broader than China's claims to virtually the whole of the South China Sea.

To begin with, the U.S. claims that the USNS Impeccable was manned by civilians and was just going about its undefined business when, suddenly, those big bad Chinese started "harassing" us – the bullies! But wait. Take a look at the Impeccable:

This baby is 5,368 tons, and over 281 ft. long: it is a surveillance ship, designed to track enemy submarines. China's contingent of nuclear-powered subs are reportedly based at Yulin, on Hainan. And while the U.S. government maintains that the crew is "civilian," half its crew are military personnel.

Now look at the Chinese vessels that were supposedly "harassing" this rather intimidating U.S. warship:

As John Stossel would put it: Give me a break! These are the ships that supposedly "aggressively maneuvered" around the Impeccable – as the Pentagon put it – "in an apparent coordinated effort to harass the U.S. ocean surveillance ship while it was conducting routine operations in international waters"? Behind the whiny rationale, however, lurks a damning admission: Yes, the U.S. routinely spies on the Chinese, and fully expects to get away with it. After all, for centuries foreigners have been lurking on the Chinese coastline, establishing colonies and warily poking and prodding the Chinese, with mostly limited responses – until now.

The Chinese, some analysts aver, are "testing" the Obama administration to see how much they can get away with. They are sending a "signal," we are told, which ought to have been clear enough after the 2001 incident, in which a U.S. surveillance plane was forced to land on Hainan after a collision with a Chinese fighter jet. The fallen Chinese pilot, one Wang Wei, is today a national hero, symbol of a resurgent Chinese nationalism that has little to do with who sits in the Oval Office. In the self-referential parlance of Washington, however, it's all about a "test" for President Obama.

Imagine if Chinese military vessels appeared 75 miles off the coast of, say, southern California, for the quite obvious purpose of tracking our submarine defenses and conducting surveillance of our San Diego naval base. It would be bombs away, pronto, and no questions asked. However, the Chinese penumbra of sovereignty is apparently more restricted.

Beijing claims U.S. actions violate the UN Law of the Sea, a treaty to which they are signatory and the U.S. is not. However, in contesting this assertion – which came up in the aftermath of the last Hainan incident – U.S. officials routinely note that the UN law, while granting China sovereignty over its "exclusive economic zone," would have been violated only if the Impeccable was on a commercial expedition, and yet the clear concern on the part of the Chinese is that this was a military mission.

We have our Monroe Doctrine, which was specifically aimed at the crowned heads of Europe, who, in our nation's youth, posed a threat on our very borders. (This same doctrine, ironically, was later tweaked and twisted into a rationale for our own imperial ambitions in South and Central America, as well as Mexico.) Other nations, however, are not entitled to a Monroe Doctrine of their own: China, Russia, and Iran have no corresponding prerogative to their own spheres of influence, as granted by geography, tradition, and the military necessities of a credible defense. It is a consistent application of the Bushian doctrine of preemption: to assert a "right" that is neither a matter of settled international law nor the subject of a treaty, and is clearly provocative in the extreme. What are we doing in China's backyard?

For decades, the Taiwan lobby has bought and manipulated U.S. politicians and succeeded in passing legislation that requires the U.S. to provide for Taiwan's security needs, including going to war in case its disputed sovereignty is violated. A huge arms sale under the Bush administration was orchestrated as a result of this unique legislation, which is a monument to the power of foreign lobbyists in the Imperial City.

Hey, wait a minute, aren't we're supposed to be in a new era here, with the ascension of Obama I to the imperial throne? One would think that such Bushian orthodoxies as the Wolfowitz doctrine – which assumes U.S. military supremacy on every continent – would be thrown in the dustbin of history. This is apparently not the case: the U.S. continues to assert its imperial prerogatives as if nothing has changed, as indeed it has not.

The administration has made a big show of abjuring torture and repudiating the legal doctrines that underpin it, but that's just an ordinary sense of decency, the least we might expect from the savior of our national honor. Now what about repudiating the military doctrines that were the foundations of George W. Bush's crazed foreign policy? Let's give the doctrine of military preemption – you know, the whole rationale for our disastrous Iraqi adventure – the heave-ho. The real change that's needed when it comes to the conduct of our government in relation to the rest of the world would be the abandonment of our legendary arrogance, which presumes our leading role on the world stage.

Bush and his neocon supporters gloried in what Charles Krauthammer exultantly deemed "the unipolar moment," but that moment has clearly passed. Indeed, it may have passed even as Krauthammer announced it. The Washington-based analysts are all atwitter about what prompted the Chinese to move on this front – even as U.S.-Chinese negotiations have been deemed a success and a visit to Washington by China's foreign minister is planned.

Yet the Chinese, even more than we, are well aware that America's moment may be passing. The biggest holders of U.S. debt are Chinese state-owned companies. No wonder they're resentful of our spy ship trawling their coastline: after all, they paid for it. What ought to be worrying the Obama administration is that the interest they're getting on their loan may not be enough to cover their national pride deficit. We may have the mightiest military in the world, but if the Chinese stop buying our debt, then the whole structure of the American warfare-welfare state will come tumbling down with astonishing rapidity.

There is plenty of anti-Chinese political sentiment in this country, and it's a constituency that is bipartisan. Among the Democrats, you have organized labor, which is instinctively Sinophobic in this country and always has been, as the history of the oppression of Chinese coolies in California amply demonstrates. The protectionist unions are in a lather about the fact that Chinese workers produce cheaper and better products that American consumers want to buy. In tandem with international do-gooders of every sort, the anti-China popular front also consists of Republicans of the sort who will welcome any fresh enemy, as long as it means more subsidies for the military-industrial-congressional complex. Throw in the wacko cultists of Falun Gong, and what you have is the reincarnation of the old, bipartisan anti-Communist alliance of yesteryear, which brought us wars in Korea and Vietnam – and may yet succeed in provoking a third war on the Asian landmass, one just as futile and unwinnable as its predecessors.

The formulation of American foreign policy is all about domestic political pressures. It is the domain of lobbyists and de facto foreign agents, most of them unregistered, who work with targeted American constituencies to further various commercial and foreign interests. A rational foreign policy, i.e., one that serves authentic American interests, is virtually impossible in these circumstances.

~ Justin Raimondo
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Per your own thought, "If I were a ship captain, I would absolutely order my men to take steps to harass a foreign platform engaged in those sort of activities, in a effort to get them to essentially go away." So the Chinese did what was within their means to make the US vessel go away. Maybe the Chinese do have sufficient jamming technology? Maybe they don't. If it's the latter, then they used alternate means. What they did was crude but it worked.

It's interesting that you feel being locked on by a missile or gun is more appropriate and less threatening than a bunch of guys in their underwear throwing some garbage in front of a vessel.

You misunderstand me. I don't really have any problem with most of what the Chinese did. The only things they did that I have a problem with that they did are getting so close in the path of the ship so that there was a major risk of collision, and then trying to use the whole "EEZ" thing as justification, because that's really sort of twisting the definition of an EEZ. But no, I think that the Chinese handled this situation successfully, they harassed the Americans to the point that they couldn't gather the intelligence they wanted. Perhaps the Chinese could have been smarter about it (As I said they probably could have got the same results by just sailing alongside the American sonar array and washing out the sound), but I think they were basically within their rights in their actions.

Hopefully though the PLAN and USN can come to some sort of agreement to avoid these ugly incidents and lower tensions.

It seems that this has brought about some diplomatic action.

US, China agree on need to reduce sea tensions
By MATTHEW LEE, Associated Press Writer Matthew Lee, Associated Press Writer – Wed Mar 11, 5:13 pm ET
WASHINGTON – The United States and China agreed Wednesday on the need to reduce tensions and avoid a repeat of a confrontation between American and Chinese vessels in the South China Sea, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said. "We both agreed that we should work to ensure that such incidents do not happen again," Clinton told reporters after meeting Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi at the State Department.

The two countries remained at odds over the exact circumstances.

"We have each stated our positions, but the important point of agreement coming out of my discussions with Minister Yang is that we must work hard in the future to avoid such incidents and to avoid this particular incident having consequences that are unforeseen," she said.

Clinton told reporters that Yang's visit was a "very positive" development and that she looked forward to continuing discussions that she started with him during a trip to Beijing last month to build a "positive, cooperative and comprehensive relationship."

Before their private meeting, neither Clinton nor Yang mentioned the dispute, even as China's Foreign Ministry in Beijing responded for a second consecutive day to U.S. complaints that Chinese vessels harassed a U.S. Navy surveillance ship in international waters on Sunday.

Yang plans to meet Thursday with President Barack Obama and his national security adviser, James Jones. White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said he expects the dispute will be discussed but will not dominate the conversation.

At the Pentagon, Defense Department press secretary Geoff Morrell said the U.S. hopes that "face-to-face dialogue in Beijing and in Washington will go a long way to clearing up any misunderstanding about this incident."

Even if diplomatic efforts by Clinton and Yang are successful in toning down the dispute, however, it may be only a temporary lull in a larger military disagreement.

Beijing has long complained about U.S. surveillance operations around China's borders. Without better communications between the two militaries as they operate in the South China Sea, the possibility for conflict will remain.

On Wednesday, China's Foreign Ministry in Beijing reiterated that the U.S. claims are "gravely in contravention of the facts and unacceptable to China." Beijing says the U.S. ship was operating illegally in China's exclusive economic zone.

U.S. defense officials say the unarmed Navy ship was in international waters and violating no laws. Officials said the USS Impeccable was looking for threats such as submarines, presumably Chinese. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because details of the ship's exact capabilities are sensitive information.

Other U.S. officials have said publicly that the United States will continue to patrol in the South China Sea despite Chinese objections. National Intelligence Director Dennis Blair told lawmakers Tuesday that the incident was the most serious episode between the two nations since 2001, when China forced the landing of a U.S. spy plane and seized the crew.

The tension arose as the Obama administration tries to get Chinese help on a host of foreign policy matters, including efforts to confront Iran and North Korea over their nuclear programs, stabilize Afghanistan and Pakistan and help staunch the worldwide economic meltdown.

Yang did not speak to reporters after his meeting with Clinton but said earlier that the primary point of his visit was to prepare for a meeting between Obama and Chinese President Hu Jinatao that will take place in early April in London on the sidelines of a summit on the global financial crisis.

Clinton said the United States and China share a joint responsibility to make that summit a success and help the world's ailing economies recover. She praised as "a very positive step" the Chinese government's own economic stimulus package, which is aimed at promoting domestic consumption.

"There is a great commitment and willingness on the part of both our government and the Chinese government to play productive and constructive roles in helping to move the world toward this recovery," she said, noting that Yang would also meet Wednesday with Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner.

In her comments, Clinton rejected criticism from some lawmakers and human rights groups that the administration has downgraded the promotion of human rights in its foreign policy. She noted she had raised such matters, including the situation in Tibet, with Yang.

"Human rights is part of our comprehensive dialogue" with China, she said. "It doesn't take a front seat, a back seat or a middle seat. It is part of the broad range of issues that we are discussing."
 
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crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
But no, I think that the Chinese handled this situation successfully, they harassed the Americans to the point that they couldn't gather the intelligence they wanted.

That's what I figured. Those ships probably ran their old noisy motors all over the place, making quite a bit of noise for the passive sonars to hear. Plus the ships threw all sorts of junk into the water. There is more to meet the eye on this, as trawlers and fishing vessels have their own sonars used to track fish, not to mention an oceanographic vessel is also used. Turning their sonars on loudly and pinging in front of passive sonars can have their effects. If they had successfully cut and stolen the TAS, that would be a big intelligence coup.

All these incidents---this, the permission refused on the Kitty Hawk to visit Hong Kong, and the EP3 incident---all have a common theme with the sub base in Hainan. It probably wont be the last since the US will certainly not stop surveying the base, but neither will it be the last for Chinese attempts to stop such surveillance.
 

tonyget

Senior Member
Registered Member
Article 73 of the UNCLOS:

That would have been perfectly legal under UNCLOS. However, sending a few patrol boats to harass and directly interfere with the freedom of navigation and the safe operation of a ship is in direct contravention of UNCLOS. Had the Chinese patrol boats followed the USNS Impeccable and kept a safe distance away, this would not be a incident.


The US surveillance ship was engaged in research activity without consent.



UNCLOS

Article 246

Marine scientific research in the exclusive economic zone and on the continental shelf

2. Marine scientific research in the exclusive economic zone and on the continental shelf shall be conducted with the consent of the coastal State.



The US ship was illegal.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
It probably wont be the last since the US will certainly not stop surveying the base, but neither will it be the last for Chinese attempts to stop such surveillance.
Agreed. China is building a lot of new, modern ships, particularly new classes of much more capable submarines.

This type of surveillance goes with the territory...and Chana and the US are going to, through experience, find a medium and "Rules of Behavior" between each other.

Hopefully that can happen before there is any other tragic incidents brought on by the point and counter point associated with these activities

But this type of surveillance between major powers is not abnormal, and as you say, it is not likely to stop.

I have no doubts that China, in its own way, with the technology and people resources they have, is doing the same thing whenever it can.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Thank you for posting additional pics. Curious, with a plane flying by, why is there no flag raised on the ship? Is that standard norm when contact has been made?

Generally speaking MSC ships fly the US flag when entering or leaving port. I know USN ships only fly the flag in certain situations and not at all times.

I'm sure the Chinese knew that was a US ship simply by the hull number and the yellow and blue stripes on the stacks.
 

Engineer

Major
Perhaps the Chinese could have been smarter about it (As I said they probably could have got the same results by just sailing alongside the American sonar array and washing out the sound), but I think they were basically within their rights in their actions.
I highly doubt it is that simple, otherwise that would have been done.

You can turn up the speaker as loud as you want. With a powerful enough computer and plenty of time on my hands, I can still eliminate the noise and get the signal I want.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
US Navy dispatches USS Chung-Hoon DDG-93 to ride shotgun for Impeccable.

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Associated Press

WASHINGTON — The Navy has assigned a heavily armed destroyer to escort the U.S. surveillance ship that got into a high-seas confrontation with Chinese ships last weekend.
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A defense official says the Pearl Harbor-based destroyer Chung-Hoon is keeping a close eye on the unarmed sub-hunting ship Impeccable as it continues operations in the South China Sea. The official spoke on condition of anonymity to describe sensitive ship movements.

The official says the escort ship joined the Impeccable on Wednesday.

China has demanded that the United States quit surveillance work in a disputed area far off the Chinese coastline. U.S. officials say they won't back off.

The Chung-Hoon is among the Navy's newest and most sophisticated warships. It joined the fleet in 2004.

RADM Chung-Hoon US Navy;
Rear Admiral Gordon Pai'ea Chung-Hoon was born on July 25, 1910, in Honolulu, Hawaii. The second youngest of five Chung-Hoon children, he attended the U.S. Naval Academy and graduated in May 1934. While at the Naval Academy, he was a valued member of the Navy Football team.

Rear Admiral Chung-Hoon is a recipient of the Navy Cross and Silver Star for conspicuous gallantry and extraordinary heroism as Commanding Officer of USS Sigsbee (DD 502) from May 1944 to October 1945. In the spring of 1945, Sigsbee assisted in the destruction of 20 enemy planes while screening a carrier strike force off the Japanese island of Kyushu. On April 14, 1945, while on radar picket station off Okinawa, a kamikaze crashed into Sigsbee, reducing her starboard engine to five knots and knocking out the ship's port engine and steering control. Despite the damage, Admiral Chung-Hoon, then a Commander, valiantly kept his anti-aircraft batteries delivering "prolonged and effective fire" against the continuing enemy air attack while simultaneously directing the damage control efforts that allowed Sigsbee to make port under her own power.

After retiring from the Navy in 1959, Rear Admiral Chung-Hoon was appointed by William Quinn, Hawaii’s first elected governor since statehood, to serve as director of the state Department of Agriculture. Rear Admiral Chung-Hoon died in July 1979.
 
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