Pentagon accuses Chinese vessels of harassing U.S. ship

Engineer

Major
No, the actual wording from the UN in the relevant section on the EEZ says this:

"The coastal State may, in the exercise of its sovereign rights to explore, exploit, conserve and manage the living resources in the exclusive economic zone..."

Note that your section... Since the Convention further states that such laws only apply to natural resource conservation in the EEZ, my section overruns your section on this matter, as Article 73 is meant to be a clarifier to Article 56.
As you have quoted, but unlike what you have said, the convention is not just about natural resources. The act of exploration is also included, thus Chinese is still in compliance of the convention. More on this later.

The Chinese directly violated Article 58 of UNCLOS, which states...

Go over to Article 87, and it states this....

(f) freedom of scientific research, subject to Parts VI and XIII.
Bogus. Go over to part XIII, and in Article 240 we see this:
"General principles for the conduct of marine scientific research

In the conduct of marine scientific research the following principles shall apply:
(a) marine scientific research shall be conducted exclusively for peaceful purposes;
(b) marine scientific research shall be conducted with appropriate scientific methods and means compatible with this Convention;
(c) marine scientific research shall not unjustifiably interfere with other legitimate uses of the sea compatible with this Convention and shall be duly respected in the course of such uses;
(d) marine scientific research shall be conducted in compliance with all relevant regulations adopted in conformity with this Convention including those for the protection and preservation of the marine environment."

Again, Chinese is in full compliance with the convention.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
More than who's 'right' or 'wrong', I'm far more interested in what message Pentagon is trying to send to China or indeed Obama by publicizing at this time something which I think has been going on for a long time.
Maybe someone in Pentagon thinks Hillary was cozying up too much with China when she visited. :)

I also remember an urban legend many years ago of another close encounter of a Chinese fishing trawler & a USN survey ship resulting in the trawler 'accidentally' cutting the survey ship's towed sonar. :)
 

joshuatree

Captain
I don't think you understand the nature of the treaty, and treaties in general. The law represented in the treaty is binding on the ratifying nation (unless it violates said nation's constitution, in which case it is null and void, but that is neither here northere), regardless of who it interacts with, unless the treaty stipulates that it does not apply to interactions with non-signatories, which is not the case here.

By ratifying the treaty, China made UNCLOS part of Chinese law. The government is bound by its laws (at least one would hope they would abide by them). For example, the U.S. ratified Geneva. If the U.S. goes to war with a nation that is not a signatory, it still must abide by the convention. The U.S. is not a ratifying party to UNCLOS, but it still must respect the claims of other nation-states, and it does indeed do this in practice.

I think you wish to interpret so as to benefit the US's side. The example of the US ratifying the Geneva Convention is a classic example of the US disregarding a ratified treaty per your logic, ie. Gitmo and its detainment of prisoners. You'll find many of US's allies denouncing the violation of the Geneva Convention right there.

The US cannot expect to have credibility in arguing about what is the standard when it routinely thinks it's above the law. You can't pick and choose laws that are only beneficial to you. The Kyodo Protocol is another example of where the US wants to pick and choose. It would seem every country from now on should simply sign but not ratify any international agreement so as to let them pick and choose at will what applies and what doesn't.
 

joshuatree

Captain
Well if one nation has better jamming technology than the other, that's a fact of the situation. The disadvangtaged navy should get a bigger budget. Regardless of your technology you can't really cry if you're spying on another nation's ships and they jam your radars and communications because they have superior technology. If the Chinese did that to a US ship or plane, then they would be well within their rights.

As for taking other measures like locking on, well that's part of harassing the other side to try to get them to stop their intelligence gathering activities. Yes it's "agressive and warlike" but again it's to be expected and fully appropriate if people are following you around and trying to get you on their microphones etc. etc. If I were a ship captain, I would absolutely order my men to take steps to harass a foreign platform engaged in those sort of activities, in a effort to get them to essentially go away. But one has to know where the line is. It depends on the circumstances (where you are, the political situation, what the enemy is doing, what your orders are etc.) but generally we can put the line at firing, even firing in warning should not be done unless the other side is really doing something to endanger you. All I hope for is that the navies of the world know where the boundry lies, and are able to work it out amongst themselves, since these types of incidents happen frequently.

Per your own thought, "If I were a ship captain, I would absolutely order my men to take steps to harass a foreign platform engaged in those sort of activities, in a effort to get them to essentially go away." So the Chinese did what was within their means to make the US vessel go away. Maybe the Chinese do have sufficient jamming technology? Maybe they don't. If it's the latter, then they used alternate means. What they did was crude but it worked.

It's interesting that you feel being locked on by a missile or gun is more appropriate and less threatening than a bunch of guys in their underwear throwing some garbage in front of a vessel.
 
More than who's 'right' or 'wrong', I'm far more interested in what message Pentagon is trying to send to China or indeed Obama by publicizing at this time something which I think has been going on for a long time.

I agree. Furthermore, I beleive such incidents are common amongst all rival navies and not just confied to PLAN-USN. I am surprised that such a minor incident is being played up the the Pentagon.
 
Last edited:

joshuatree

Captain
I agree. Furthermore more, I beleive such incidents are common amongst all rival navies and not just confied to PLAN-USN. I am surprised that such a minor incident is being played up the the Pentagon.

It's quite possible this is more of a US internal political jockeying. Lockheed has taken ads in its quest to continue the F22 program, appealing to the loss of jobs if production ended in 2011. Wouldn't surprise me if this PLAN-USN media exposure is nothing more than an attempt to influence military budget decisions at Capitol Hill.
 

Rising China

Junior Member
:china::china::china:

China protests US ‘incursion’

Asia News Network
First Posted 16:49:00 03/11/2009


BEIJING—A US navy vessel violated international and Chinese laws as it conducted unauthorized activities in China's exclusive economic zone (EEZ) in the South China Sea on Sunday, the Foreign Ministry said yesterday.

"China has lodged a protest to the United States as the USNS Impeccable conducted the activities ... without China's permission," ministry spokesman Ma Zhaoxu told a regular news briefing.

"We demand that the United States immediately stop such activities and take effective measures to prevent similar acts from recurring," he said.

The Pentagon said on Monday that five Chinese ships, including a naval vessel, "harassed" the US ship in international waters 120 kilometers south of the southernmost province of Hainan.

The Chinese vessels "shadowed and aggressively maneuvered in dangerously close proximity" to the Impeccable, with one ship coming within 25 feet, a US Defense Department statement said.

Ma said "the US claims are gravely in contravention of the facts and confuse black and white. They are totally unacceptable to China."

The UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), the Law on the Exclusive Economic Zone and the Continental Shelf of the People's Republic of China, and China's Regulations on the Management of Foreign-related Marine Scientific Research, have clear regulations on foreign vessels' activities in China's EEZs, Ma said.

The Chinese government always handles such activities strictly in accordance with these laws and regulations, he added.

The US has not ratified UNCLOS, objecting to a clause on seabed mineral exploration.

The Pentagon said the Impeccable had been conducting "routine operations in the South China Sea in accordance with customary international law."

Wang Hanling, an expert on marine law at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, said China has reiterated that any intelligence data gathering by foreign vessels within its EEZ is illegal.

Pang Zhongying, a professor of international relations at Renmin University of China, said the US ship's activities may be a step by the Pentagon to "test the waters". He did not elaborate.

However, the dispute is unlikely to do lasting damage to ties between the two countries as they combat the global economic slump, a Chinese analyst in Beijing said.

"Overall, this won't have a major impact, because the United States and China need each other," said Shi Yinhong of Renmin University of China.

Pang agreed that the incident is unlikely to hamper Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi's current US trip and the newly resumed military exchanges between the two sides, suspended in October due to Washington's massive arms deal with Taiwan.

"But that (Sunday's incident) is a dangerous move. I hope the US side calms down, thinks over it and not let it destroy mutual trust which is key to both sides, especially during the financial crisis," he said.

Yang left for Washington on Monday to work on plans for a meeting between President Hu Jintao and US President Barack Obama in London next month.

Yang is scheduled to meet his US counterpart Hillary Clinton and US Secretary of Finance Timothy Geithner today. Sources with the Foreign Ministry said he might meet with Obama tomorrow.

Ma did not indicate if Yang's itinerary or agenda had changed because of the latest maritime dispute. Li Xiaokun, China Daily-ANN
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
it seem alot people still compare this incident vs soviet era incident. but china is not soviet, and it will do thing differently.

as for EEZ who cares, "the might is right", doesn't matter US is wrong or not, it has the technology and power to do things, while china doesn't have that now.
 
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Naval Confrontation: China Pushing U.S. Further Away From Its Territory
Wednesday, March 11, 2009
By Patrick Goodenough, International Editor

The ocean surveillance ship USNS Impeccable uses passive and active low frequency sonar arrays to detect and track undersea threats. (Photo: U.S. Navy) (CNSNews.com) – Disputes between the United States and China over naval movements in the South China Sea are not likely to end anytime soon, analysts say, as the two sides are divided over what activities are allowed. International law on the matter is vague.

Beijing said Tuesday that a U.S. naval ship confronted by Chinese ships earlier this month had been carrying out “illegal surveying in China’s special economic zone,” in contravention of Chinese and international laws.

The Pentagon said the USNS Impeccable, an unarmed ocean surveillance vessel, was harassed for several days by five Chinese ships, including a navy ship, in international waters about 75 miles south of China’s southern Hainan Island.

In the most serious incident, Chinese vessels “shadowed and aggressively maneuvered in dangerously close proximity” to the U.S. ship on Sunday, coming as close as 25 feet away, the Pentagon said. The U.S. has formally protested to the Chinese government, and says its ships “will continue to operate in international waters in accordance with customary international law.”

China’s reference to its economic zone arises from the 1982 U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), which recognizes exclusive economic zones (EEZ) stretching 200 nautical miles (about 230 miles) from a country’s coastline. The U.S. has not ratified UNCLOS.

EEZs aim to balance the desire of coastal states to control and exploit offshore resources beyond their 12 nautical mile territorial limit against other maritime powers’ interests in maintaining freedom of navigation. Experts say ambiguities in UNCLOS language, which is open to differing interpretations by different countries, have given rise to numerous disputes.

Beijing has long sought to prevent other countries from carrying out surveillance or surveying operations within its EEZ, and in 2002 enacted a law outlawing such activities without authorization. (At the same time, however, China frequently sends survey vessels into areas that Japan considers to be within its EEZ; the two countries have clashed for decades over surveying activities in waters both claim.)

Ron Huisken of the Strategic and Defense Studies Center at the Australian National University said Wednesday that “both sides have dug in” and he did not expect that appealing to the “law” would help to resolve the issue.

He said he expected that China, “within the substantial gray areas in international law,” would want to reach informal understandings with the U.S. Navy that “err on the side of China’s interests in pushing the U.S. further away from its territory.”
“Traditionally, however, the U.S. has been fiercely protective of the freedom of the high seas,” he added. “A betting man would anticipate a steady diet of such incidents.”
Is intelligence-gathering a peaceful or threatening activity?

UNCLOS provides for “freedom of navigation and overflight” in EEZs. It says military activities inside a country’s EEZ must be “peaceful” and may not adversely affect the environment or economic resources of the coastal state.
Whether surveillance or surveying activities constitute “peaceful” acts is a matter of dispute, however.

In 2002, officials and scholars from the U.S. and several Asian countries, including China, met on the Indonesian island of Bali for a dialogue on “military and intelligence-gathering activities in EEZs,” co-sponsored by the East West Center in Hawaii and an Indonesian institute.

According to a East West Center report summarizing the dialogue, participants grappled with issues such as at what point a coastal country can reasonably regard intelligence-gathering to be a threatening activity.

One area of consensus was the determination that “no specific rules exist governing military activity in the EEZ except that they be peaceful, that is, non-hostile, non-aggressive, that they refrain from use of force or threat thereof, and that they do not adversely affect economic resources or the environment.”

But the many disagreements included different views of the meaning of terms like “peaceful” and “threat of force.”

China’s view on the matter was spelled out in a paper written in 2005 by two Chinese scholars, one of them a senior colonel in the armed forces, which stated unambiguously that “military and reconnaissance activities in the EEZ … encroach or infringe on the national security interests of the coastal State, and can be considered a use of force or a threat to use force against that State.”

Submarine detection

The USN Impeccable is a twin-hulled ocean surveillance ship designed to detect quiet foreign diesel and nuclear-powered submarines and to map the seabed for future antisubmarine warfare purposes, according to U.S. Navy data.

Towed behind and below the vessel are two sonar systems – an active one that emits a low frequency pulse and a passive one that listens for returning echoes. The system is known as SURTASS (surveillance towed-array sensor system).

“The SURTASS mission is to gather ocean acoustical data for antisubmarine warfare and rapidly transmit the information to the Navy for prompt analysis,” the Military Sealift Command said in a statement when the Impeccable was christened in 2000.

“China certainly would realize what this ship is up to, and would view its presence in those waters as threatening,” Jon Van Dyke, professor of law at the University of Hawaii School of Law – and an expert in maritime disputes and military activities in EEZs – said Wednesday.

“The U.S. anti-submarine low frequency active sonar is deemed vital by the United States in the event of a Chinese attack on Taiwan, because we would then need to be able to find and destroy China's subs, which are increasing in numbers,” he said.

During Sunday’s confrontation in the South China Sea, the Impeccable’s towed sonar systems appeared to be a particular target.

One of three photographs released by the U.S. Navy of the incident shows a crewmember on one of the Chinese vessels using a grapple hook in what the Navy said was “an apparent attempt to snag the towed acoustic array” of the Impeccable.

Hainan Island is home to a strategic Chinese Navy base that reportedly houses ballistic missile submarines.

Last May, the Jane’s group of defense publications released new commercially available satellite images which it said confirmed reports about the existence of an underground submarine base near Sanya, on the island’s southern tip.

It said 11 tunnel openings were visible at the base, as was one of China’s advanced new Type 094 nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs), known by NATO as the Jin-class and reportedly boasting 12 missile silos.

The U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence in 2006 said China would probably aim to build and deploy five Jin-class submarines in order to have “a near-continuous at-sea SSBN presence.”

Resolving differences

Van Dyk, who played a key role in the EEZ dialogue in Bali in 2002, said Wednesday that in the course of those meetings it emerged that the Chinese Navy was behaving towards Japan and other neighbors in the same way as the U.S. Navy behaves towards China, “with regard to coastal surveillance etc.”
In trying to find a way to resolve its differences with China over permitted activities in EEZs, Van Dyk said, “the U.S. will probably try to convince China that it is in China’s interest – as an emerging naval power – to support the [U.S.-held] view that international law permits naval activities in the EEZs of other countries.”

Another factor that could “reduce the urgency of this confrontation” would be improving relations between China and Taiwan, he said.

Hainan island was also the location of an earlier, serious military-related incident involving the U.S. and China, which also raised questions in international law about legitimate activities in EEZs.

In April 2001, a U.S. Navy EP-3 spy plane on a “routine surveillance mission” was involved in a mid-air collision with one of two Chinese F-8 fighter jets which had been deployed to intercept the slow-moving aircraft. The Chinese pilot was killed.

Following the collision, the EP-3 issued a mayday warning and made an emergency landing at a military airfield on Hainan. The 24-person crew was held there for 11 days before being permitted to leave, and China only allowed the plane to be dismantled and airlifted home months later.

Director of National Intelligence Adm. Dennis Blair told the Senate Armed Services Committee Tuesday that the harassment of the Impeccable was the “most serious” military dispute between the U.S. and China since the 2001 mid-air collision.
 
Top