Pakistan News Thread

[panzerkom]

Sorry to disagree with you Popeye, but since when are people that are prerpared to sacrifice their lives for what they believe in Cowards?

Are the posthumus holders of the VC or CM cowards?, were the Kamaikazi's?

I think most people would accept that those that unleash tremendous firepower via push button from hundreds of miles away or who drop LGB's on women and kids from 50,000ft are better designated as cowards then these.

Any people or country that cannot diferentiate this very basic fact must be in very serious trouble indeed!

I think Bill Maher said something similiar and he got fired for it, and I relly like Politically Incorrect too.

Bill Maher later clarified his view, which I agreed with, he doesn't think that the act of killing oneself is cowardice in and of itself. However, targetting un-armed civilian is WRONG. I hope we can at least agree on that.

More on the use of high-tech weaponry later.

 

[SampanViking]

Sorry Popeye if my remarks upset, but I think Panzerkom nicely paraphrased my position.

I dont think anyone would want to justify the targeting of innocent civilians as a good or worthwhile thing to do, but Bhutto was not one of these, she was; as you guys say, a "Very High Value Target" and again with due respect, the US has shown itself many times to be prepared to "suffer" considerable "Collateral Damage" in pursuit of those.

From a Chinese Security perspective, her demise is not bad news. Pakistan is intended for a major conduit for Pipelines of Iranian Oil and Gas, heading into China and the US pressure has already seriously hampered plans to extend these pipelines across Indian territory for delivery into China's South Western region. Had Bhutto assumed power in Pakistan, it is likely that the pipeline plans would have been killed off completely

The Geopolitical stakes in the region are very high and will continue to play throughout next year, just as they have this one.

 

[crazyinsane105]

I do have some words to say as well. As a Pakistani myself, I don't feel one bit sad that Benazir Bhutto died. I feel sad that nearly 160 innocent bystanders had to die in two horrible attacks. Why do I feel for the innocent bystanders and not Bhutto? Because Bhutto shares the majority of the blame for the rise of extremism and secetarian violence during her previous two terms in office. She looted nearly 1.5 billion dollars from the national treasury and took out 30 billion dollars in IMF loans, which almost NONE went into development of the country. Nobody knows where that money went. The end result? Pakistan was nearly broke and bankrupted by the time Musharraf came to power, and this led millions to extremist groups just for survival.

It's quite funny how these politicians never seemed to care about Pakistan when it was broke, but now that Pakistan has turned out to be one of the most fastest growing economies on this planet, they're all back to 'spread democracy.' Let me tell you guys something: during Bhutto's rule, very few reporters were willing to risk their lives to speak out against her. There was no such thing as a free media back then (something that Musharraf decided to implement) and the only organization that decided to investigate her was the ISI (Inter Services Intelligence). And the fact that she fully supported the Taliban's rule in Afghanistan is simply another case...

Now don't get me wrong. Just because I am not sad by her death doesn't mean I support it. Even if she was the only person to die without any bystanders getting killed, I still wouldn't. Why? Because unfortunately now Bhutto is being viewed as a martyr in Pakistan instead of the corrupt, evil villian she was. It would have been better for her to contest elections (and she would have most likely ended up losing too, her only major support is in the Sindh province in Pakistan). That way, there would be no violence and many Pakistanis would realize she has no voice in the future of Pakistan.

 

[Deleted member 675]

When they attack un-armed innocent civilians.

I agree. Suicide bombers attack without warning and invariably attack those least able to defend themselves. But more than the bombers, the real cowards are the people who sent them to die whilst they're nice and safe in their safe-houses, watching the results on their satellite TV.

Benazir Bhutto was probably Pakistan's best chance for a way out of its current mess - her murder has thrown the country back into uncertainty and fear.

 

[AssassinsMace]

Whew! That's a hornet's nest being played with.

Killing innoncent civilians is a crime but let's not be so narrow with the definition of the term or one is just as evil as a terrorist.

 

[crazyinsane105]

Benazir Bhutto was probably Pakistan's best chance for a way out of its current mess - her murder has thrown the country back into uncertainty and fear.

No, Benazir Bhutto had promised the US many things including handing over AQ Khan. The Pakistani military views her as a security threat. When she was in power, she wasn't allowed anywhere near Pakistan's nuclear facilities. Had she contested elections, she would have ended up losing and that was probably the best way to neutralize her.

All these riots are taking place mostly in the Sindh part of Pakistan. Within a week or two these riots will die down. Her party may end up fracturing into two or three different parties because of her stupid decision to appoint herself as 'President for Life' and not name a successor. Odd, she spoke of democracy, yet in her own party she ruled like a dictator...

 

[Pointblank]

Odd, she spoke of democracy, yet in her own party she ruled like a dictator...

A quote from the past:

She can talk beautifully about democracy. But she does not know how to live democracy. - Eleanor Roosevelt

 

[crazyinsane105]

Well this is just completely ridiculous. Benazir's 19 year old son (yeah, you read right, 19) is going to succeed Benazir Bhutto in ruling the party while her husband Zardari (who did not seem a bit sad by her death, he gets to inherit all the fortune anyway) is going to be the real brains behind the party. Wow, what can I say. I simply wonder why the Western media doesn't bother to question the 'democracy' that has just taken place within the party that is supposed to bring democracy to Pakistan...

Oh, by the way, here's a summary of the damage that has taken place so far because of the riots (from what I know, the riots are coming to an end finally):

173 bank torched completely
26 bank damaged

158 office torched and burnt completly
23 office damaged
24 petrol pump burnt
2 petrol pump damaged
370 cars completely burnt

61 cars damaged
72 trains bogies torched completly
18 railway station burnt completely
4 station damaged

765 shops burnt completely
19 offices/shops damaged partially

38 people killed
53 people injured

information courtesy Brigadier Cheema Interior Ministry Spokesman.

 

[Norfolk]

I understand that the main Karachi-Lahore railway line is effectively cut just south of Sukkar, as well as an alternate line further south in the centre of Sind Province:

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That is potentially very serious, especially when the Government is estimating that it will take 20 days to a month to make repairs. And that's only after they're able to get to those places to make the repairs.

PS: Things are getting just too weird in Pakistan right now.

 

[Finn McCool]

I agree with Crazyinsane vis-a-vis Bhutto. I was always suspiscous of her. She wasn't a very good prime minister for reasons already explained by Crazyinsane and the way that her sucsession has been determined shows how her party is really just a vehicle for the agrandizement of the Bhutto family (who were/are fuedal landlords) and their supporters.

With that said this assasination is still a terrible thing. Bhutto was no saint but she was leading a movement with some popular support and was the main face of opposition to Musharraf. The energy she brought to the political scene could have resulted in more legitimate democratic leaders coming to the fore. Now that potential is replaced by fear.

Pakistan is spinning into chaos, and there is really not much that foreigners can do. A less demanding US and a more friendly India would help, but I don't see any of those coming soon. Musharraf could right his country again but it seems that all he knows how to do is sick his riot police on protesters. He is indecisive, he wants to maintain Pakistan's strategic relationship with Islamic militants and is afraid of their power but he does not realize that if he does not act quickly he will be in serious danger from them. If my information is correct, then most of the Pakistan population is against Islamic militants like those that assaisinated Bhutto. If Musharraf (who I believe is not corrupt) cracked down on them and made it clear that this was not because of American pressure, but because of the major threat posed to Pakistan's stability then I think he could win. The problem is that he would constantly be undercut by his own military and security forces.