Actuallly the vt4 is technically the export version of the 99a since it utilizes the 99a's tech
Pakistan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter A.Man
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Technically, yes, but the T-99A is a different beast altogether. This situation is similar to the T-90A/M versus the S/MS that India operates. 500 VT4s + 1000 AK Is will be necessary, but I think we'd still need another 500 in the class of the Altay/99A/90M
The acquisition of these 2000 MBTs should cost around 9 billion USD, over 10 years, which is basically the same amount that the Navy got its S-20 submarines for. Considering the Navy shouldn't need anything else for a while, so that procurement spend should be redirected to this Army pipeline now (leaving the PAF unaffected.)
Well, I think it might be premature to sell the T-80UDs. The Russians have recently started to upgrade their own T-80BVs. I think they still produce diesel T-80UD chassis at UralTransMash for the Koalitsiya-SV. They also have hundreds of T-80UDs still. If it came to that and they are willing to sell I think the tanks could be upgraded or at least replaced. Also, I think it is premature to assume Ukraine will be blocked from exporting whatever they do have to Pakistan in the short term since US is still in Afghanistan.
Considering the huge amounts of 1st and 2nd generation MBTs still in service I think those should be upgraded first.
I think the Al-Khalid tanks are also a problem because they have too many foreign components and too little armor.
Pakistan should just get a license to produce the VT-4. Perhaps existing Al-Khalid tanks could be upgraded to VT-4 status since it is also based on Type-90II chassis but I don't know how easy this would be. The 1st and 2nd generation MBTs should be replaced with VT-4. At least 1000 tanks. Even if it had a weaker engine to make it cheaper.
With regards to Altay or T-90MS there is a possibility either Turkey might not get permission to export the tank or the components, even for themselves, and Russia might be blocked from selling because India will put pressure on them, but I doubt it. Either tank would be fine, I guess, but Altay uses different caliber gun and different ammo. So it would make logistics worse even if it is a better tank.
Considering the huge amounts of 1st and 2nd generation MBTs still in service I think those should be upgraded first.
I think the Al-Khalid tanks are also a problem because they have too many foreign components and too little armor.
Pakistan should just get a license to produce the VT-4. Perhaps existing Al-Khalid tanks could be upgraded to VT-4 status since it is also based on Type-90II chassis but I don't know how easy this would be. The 1st and 2nd generation MBTs should be replaced with VT-4. At least 1000 tanks. Even if it had a weaker engine to make it cheaper.
With regards to Altay or T-90MS there is a possibility either Turkey might not get permission to export the tank or the components, even for themselves, and Russia might be blocked from selling because India will put pressure on them, but I doubt it. Either tank would be fine, I guess, but Altay uses different caliber gun and different ammo. So it would make logistics worse even if it is a better tank.
The problem with our T-80s is that they aren't the diesel version, they have gas-turbines. This was a massive logistical problem to begin with so sinking in more $$$ into the T-80UD on upgrades (while retaining the same engine) would be a lost cause. We could replace the engines though, put diesel engines in there... That would be expensive, but if we want to keep the T-80s, that's what we're going to have to do. Someone will have to do the cost/benefit analysis of that, that's why I'm saying it may be better to cut losses on the T-80 altogether and spend that money on newer tanks. And if the requirement now is for large orders of newer tanks anyway, then just do it right and get it over with.
Also, I looked into the Altay, apparently we already had trials for it and it failed for the same reason the Abrams failed in Pakistan. The deserts of South Asia have a peculiar character and tanks on the heavy side lose a lot of mobility here. This is another reason the Pak Army is a little confused. They do want a heavy MBT (they've wanted it since the 80s) but they don't work well in our desert sectors. (India's Arjun also had this issue as far as I remember, among the many others.) Maybe we just have to work on the AKII, with the AKI and VT-4 as the backbone. Either way, we still need a total of 2000 3/3+ gen tanks in this decade. They're gonna have to figure it out.
Also, I looked into the Altay, apparently we already had trials for it and it failed for the same reason the Abrams failed in Pakistan. The deserts of South Asia have a peculiar character and tanks on the heavy side lose a lot of mobility here. This is another reason the Pak Army is a little confused. They do want a heavy MBT (they've wanted it since the 80s) but they don't work well in our desert sectors. (India's Arjun also had this issue as far as I remember, among the many others.) Maybe we just have to work on the AKII, with the AKI and VT-4 as the backbone. Either way, we still need a total of 2000 3/3+ gen tanks in this decade. They're gonna have to figure it out.
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Armour: Wrong assumption, baseline AK trute front in naked form without application of ERA or additional applique armour offer <700mm RHA protection [calculation also include back plate], the BEST HEAT round Indian Army have is capable of only 550mm armour penetration
While front of baseline AK and AK-I offer +900mm RHA protection without ERA or additional Armour
Baseline AK have Ukrainian Engine while ESM 500 transmission is French these 2 main components are still foreign but it seems transmission for AK-I is also imported from Ukraine while targeting sits are now made in Pakistan by a Private Company
TI Sights: Sights are now made by a Pakistani Company
No first gen tank is operational with PA in fact not anywhere in the world as tanks use and develop in World War are known as Gen-1 tanks and tanks built after WWII are consider second generation tanks; T-59 fall in the category of 2nd gen tanks and PA has hand over these tanks to FC at Pak-Afghan Border, where now a days they are mostly use in indirect fire support role
As far as VT-4 is concern it seems Pakistan will purchase multiple batches in next decade, currently first two batches are ordered further 2 are under negotiation [as per the guy who literally few hours before the official announcement break this news at the other forum]
not exactly this figures but you can say at the end of next decade we are expecting +1,000 VT-4 in the army keep in mind it was reported by media that PA [Pakistan Army] will purchase 500+ tanks at the time when PA conducting trials for new tank
Our T-80UDs use 5TD 1000 horse power engine not the russian gas turbine engine
I think no, PA representative might have seek information about Altay in Turkey but there is no news of Altay trial in Pakistan .... or even in Turkey for PA this tank is not even in production so I doubt PA had any consideration about this tank
This is exactly what is going to happen AK-series, VT-4 and upgraded T-80UDs would be the main force of PA armoured and would be roughly around +2000 tanks by the end of next decade, Al-Zarar and Type-85UG [upgraded Type-85] might be put into reserve
Skywatcher
Captain
Heavy MBT weight being a problem around Punjabi irrigation canals was also a major factor for India putting the Arjun on a back burner (developmental issues and feature creep didn't help either)
Okay then I misheard, hopefully that's right. But I've also heard of issues with the logistical supply line from Ukraine...
The Altay is supposed to be in serial production now, but you're right we didn't have actual trials, I checked the article I read again, and it was rejected based on specifications (weight specific):
Well, let's hope so. As long as we get 2000 3/3+ gen tanks. The T-80UDs will be a small portion of that anyway so it's not a big deal (as long as we get the rest of the 1700).
timepass
Brigadier
Features of Al-Zarrar Main Battle Tank of Pakistan Army
Features of Al-Zarrar Main Battle Tank of Pakistan Army
a). Type: Main Battle Tank.
b). Designed: 1990.
c). Built Upon: Type 59 tank.
d). Designer: Heavy Industries Taxila.
e). Number built: 700.
f). Operator: Pakistan Army.
g). Weight: 44 tons.
h). Length: 31.17 ft.
i). Width: 10.83 ft.
j). Height: 8.20 ft.
k). Crew: 4 crew members.
l). Caliber: 125 mm smoothbore.
m). Armor: Modular composite armor over hardened steel body and Explosive reactive armor.
n). Main armament: 125mm smoothbore ammunition.
o). Secondary armament: 12.7 mm external machine gun / 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun.
p). Defense: 8x smoke/flare grade dischargers.
q). Engine: 1xKMDB 12-cylinder liquid cooled diesel 730 HP/
r). Suspension: High-hardness-steel torsion bar.
s). Operational range: 450 km.
t). Speed: 65 km/h.
u). NBC protection: Shielded.
v). Optics: Thermal Imaging (G) / Passive IR (D, C) / Image Intensification (G, C).
Features of Al-Zarrar Main Battle Tank of Pakistan Army
a). Type: Main Battle Tank.
b). Designed: 1990.
c). Built Upon: Type 59 tank.
d). Designer: Heavy Industries Taxila.
e). Number built: 700.
f). Operator: Pakistan Army.
g). Weight: 44 tons.
h). Length: 31.17 ft.
i). Width: 10.83 ft.
j). Height: 8.20 ft.
k). Crew: 4 crew members.
l). Caliber: 125 mm smoothbore.
m). Armor: Modular composite armor over hardened steel body and Explosive reactive armor.
n). Main armament: 125mm smoothbore ammunition.
o). Secondary armament: 12.7 mm external machine gun / 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun.
p). Defense: 8x smoke/flare grade dischargers.
q). Engine: 1xKMDB 12-cylinder liquid cooled diesel 730 HP/
r). Suspension: High-hardness-steel torsion bar.
s). Operational range: 450 km.
t). Speed: 65 km/h.
u). NBC protection: Shielded.
v). Optics: Thermal Imaging (G) / Passive IR (D, C) / Image Intensification (G, C).
Just look at the Al-Khalid tank.
The ERA panels on the turret only cover a small fraction of the frontal sides of the turret. So if you hit the turret anywhere else you won't get ERA effect. The numbers you are talking about in terms of RHA equivalent seem kind of off to me considering the tank weight and the lack of ERA across most of it. You are talking about a tank with similar levels of turret protection as a T-90 with Kontakt-5 and when I look at the tank it does not look like that. It also seems to have no ERA on top of the turret which makes it vulnerable to top-attack missiles.
Al-Khalid ammunition also has 570mm RHA penetration at 2km which is on the low side especially against the T-90 variants the Indians have. Like you said the transmission is French and the engines are Ukrainian. They are also much lower power than the VT-4 engines which are made in China. I think the tank needs a full upgrade to VT-4 standard if possible eventually.
If Pakistan had not spent money on Al-Zarrar perhaps the VT-5 tank could have been used to secure the mountain regions. But introducing a tank like the VT-5 would complicate the logistics chain since it uses 105mm rifled gun. So I think Pakistan would be better off with Al-Zarrar on the Afghanistan border since that side doesn't need to face tanks and Al-Zarrar has 125mm gun which can use existing ammo stocks, even if it uses an obsolete chassis, and likely has poor armor, the combat systems and the gun are good enough and against infantry it doesn't make much of a difference.