this may or may not be the option .... but In my opinion IF (a very big IF) we are going to induct any four plus generation platform then our requirement is for a western platform which can supplement a larger fleet of F-16, additionally I believe that platform will be inducted in lesser number let say not more than two or may be three squadron
Pakistan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter A.Man
- Start date
we should wait and see
Dizasta1
Senior Member
Well, if what you say is true, then it would seem that Pakistan Air Force is approaching the acquisition of a Gen-4+ fighter, in cautious and reserved manner. Which is not a bad strategy at all. Given the current climate, focusing on the development of Thunders is sensible. A Gen-4+ fighter would come at some point in time, we shall have to wait for that one. All in all, Pakistan Air Force is keeping it's cards, close to its chest, and that is a good thing!
Well that's just a polite way of acknowledging that there's nothing that can be bought. My point is that given the current economic situation, any new acquisition, will drain Pakistan military resources. If the largest economies can afford few of them. In the end but war too is business.
Dizasta1
Senior Member
It is well documented that countries which pursue arms race, it is those countries' citizens which feel the real effects of arms spending.
The first step in conquering one's challenges, is by identifying and recognizing them. And hence it would be unrealistic to live in a world, where the mentality is that everything is accessible when you have money to buy it. For such a mentality is consciously devoid of the reality, that everything comes with an invisible price that they would be bound to and no amount of money would free oneself from it, because in end, there is always a catch.
Turkey, entire military is brimming with Western military hardware. It is now finding out the hard way, of the consequences for pursuing independent policies, that do not conform to Washington. In other words, "tow the line, or else!"
It was indicated by the Trump Administration, that India will soon find out what the "or else" really translates into. If it doesn't, well it exposes the ugly face of American hypocrisy and double standards. If they do, then India would learn the painful lesson of dealing with America, as Pakistan had.
The world isn't built on perfect economies, mountains of wealth and buy whatever military jet you want. You can have Euro-Fighters, F-15 Eagles costing billions of dollars. But what would most certainly not have is a cadre of competent, well trained pilots to fight your wars. As a consequence, you hire well trained, battle hardened Western pilots, to fly your fighters and fight your wars. In essence, you don't necessarily have full autonomy of your own military.
Military is established in its very bare essence, as a form of defense of a country. It is equipped with the necessary tools and weapons, to full fill it's role of defense of a country. Some where down this road, the lines between "defense" is blurred into offense, and deterrent becomes the big stick. And we witness the birth of an arms race. And that is when human ingenuity morphs into human stupidity.
It is a fine line, that humans who wish to remain human, must walk. With the ability to discern between ingenuity and stupidity. And I would like to think of us Pakistanis, as one who pursue ingenuity, as oppose to stupidity.
The first step in conquering one's challenges, is by identifying and recognizing them. And hence it would be unrealistic to live in a world, where the mentality is that everything is accessible when you have money to buy it. For such a mentality is consciously devoid of the reality, that everything comes with an invisible price that they would be bound to and no amount of money would free oneself from it, because in end, there is always a catch.
Turkey, entire military is brimming with Western military hardware. It is now finding out the hard way, of the consequences for pursuing independent policies, that do not conform to Washington. In other words, "tow the line, or else!"
It was indicated by the Trump Administration, that India will soon find out what the "or else" really translates into. If it doesn't, well it exposes the ugly face of American hypocrisy and double standards. If they do, then India would learn the painful lesson of dealing with America, as Pakistan had.
The world isn't built on perfect economies, mountains of wealth and buy whatever military jet you want. You can have Euro-Fighters, F-15 Eagles costing billions of dollars. But what would most certainly not have is a cadre of competent, well trained pilots to fight your wars. As a consequence, you hire well trained, battle hardened Western pilots, to fly your fighters and fight your wars. In essence, you don't necessarily have full autonomy of your own military.
Military is established in its very bare essence, as a form of defense of a country. It is equipped with the necessary tools and weapons, to full fill it's role of defense of a country. Some where down this road, the lines between "defense" is blurred into offense, and deterrent becomes the big stick. And we witness the birth of an arms race. And that is when human ingenuity morphs into human stupidity.
It is a fine line, that humans who wish to remain human, must walk. With the ability to discern between ingenuity and stupidity. And I would like to think of us Pakistanis, as one who pursue ingenuity, as oppose to stupidity.
True the platitudes written above. Can we come to point I raised regarding purchase of planes. Now that the global gyan is over, let's find the economic situation of the country that's trying to buy planes, ie Pakistan. Well everyone knows their situation. Even if the planes are gifted, paf will find it hard to maintain and operate twin engine fighters. That said, your pointing of flaws with the preparation sounds like of a beggar pointing the scratches on someone's Merc. Is no consideration of iaf orbat, a willful omission or just ignorance?
Dizasta1
Senior Member
Well of course the situation is a bit perturbing, where a country pursuing procurement of a new fighter type and face adverse economic conditions. Will have to face the reality where there is limited scope in what the country can choose. But such a country isn't Pakistan, since each country faces its own set of challenges and has its own strengths and weaknesses.
Pakistan's strengths are formidable and its weaknesses not insurmountable. Assessing the dynamics of geo-political world we live in. Pakistan and its Air Force move forward in accordance with such dynamics. When Vipers we sanctioned, Pakistan Air Force sought to consolidate its Mirage fleet with upgrades and a large reserve of spares. When sanctions were lifted, Pakistan Air Force upgraded its Vipers and bought new Block Vipers, establishing a standard capability throughout the Viper fleet. Now there are limitations by the West, whereby EDA, FMS are beyond Pakistan Air Force's reach, so the tactical approach has been recalibrated accordingly.
Thought out the these years, between Vipers, Mirages and F-7PGs. Pakistan Air Force persevered with the JF-17 Thunder program. This program gives Pakistan Air Force a strong standing when it comes to defending itself. Pursuit of self-reliance is paying off now. Thunders form part of Pakistan's invulnerability to Western sanctions, what makes it even better is it limits the West's ability to impose its hegemony over Pakistan, toothless! So when Vipers were not available under FMS, or EDA. Pakistan said "that's fine!" (with a smile of course). People shouldn't be too quick to judge, Vipers form an integral part Pakistan Air Force. But Pakistan has defanged the Vipers, when it comes to West's carrot/stick circus act.
As for the begged remark, well lemme ask you this, how stupid did American Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo feel, when Pakistan neutralized his "IMF threat" card? Where the IMF so called "Bail Out" seemed to bolster the false hope that they (US Govt) have Khan's Govt right where they want him. It was for all intents and purposes, a successful diplomatic rebuke by Khan's Govt who only came into power months ago. So that "beggar" remark is hollow and nothing more than an lucid dream of Pakistan's detractors.
Lastly, you raise pertinent questions, which is appreciated. At the core, Pakistanis know what needs to be done. But in the same realism frame of mind people ought recognize that decades of rotten, corrupt and disgraceful plundering of Pakistan's wealth by politicians. Coupled with a 17 year joke of a War on Terror, has inflicted serious damage to Pakistan's economy and its ability to build toward economic growth. Not to mention the constant squeaking from across the eastern border. It will take time, but it will not take forever. Work needs to be done to revive our economy, responsibly and with focus.
When the time is right, we shall pursue our fighter procurement plans. It ain't all doom and gloom, like some seem to be drenched in.
Pakistan's strengths are formidable and its weaknesses not insurmountable. Assessing the dynamics of geo-political world we live in. Pakistan and its Air Force move forward in accordance with such dynamics. When Vipers we sanctioned, Pakistan Air Force sought to consolidate its Mirage fleet with upgrades and a large reserve of spares. When sanctions were lifted, Pakistan Air Force upgraded its Vipers and bought new Block Vipers, establishing a standard capability throughout the Viper fleet. Now there are limitations by the West, whereby EDA, FMS are beyond Pakistan Air Force's reach, so the tactical approach has been recalibrated accordingly.
Thought out the these years, between Vipers, Mirages and F-7PGs. Pakistan Air Force persevered with the JF-17 Thunder program. This program gives Pakistan Air Force a strong standing when it comes to defending itself. Pursuit of self-reliance is paying off now. Thunders form part of Pakistan's invulnerability to Western sanctions, what makes it even better is it limits the West's ability to impose its hegemony over Pakistan, toothless! So when Vipers were not available under FMS, or EDA. Pakistan said "that's fine!" (with a smile of course). People shouldn't be too quick to judge, Vipers form an integral part Pakistan Air Force. But Pakistan has defanged the Vipers, when it comes to West's carrot/stick circus act.
As for the begged remark, well lemme ask you this, how stupid did American Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo feel, when Pakistan neutralized his "IMF threat" card? Where the IMF so called "Bail Out" seemed to bolster the false hope that they (US Govt) have Khan's Govt right where they want him. It was for all intents and purposes, a successful diplomatic rebuke by Khan's Govt who only came into power months ago. So that "beggar" remark is hollow and nothing more than an lucid dream of Pakistan's detractors.
Lastly, you raise pertinent questions, which is appreciated. At the core, Pakistanis know what needs to be done. But in the same realism frame of mind people ought recognize that decades of rotten, corrupt and disgraceful plundering of Pakistan's wealth by politicians. Coupled with a 17 year joke of a War on Terror, has inflicted serious damage to Pakistan's economy and its ability to build toward economic growth. Not to mention the constant squeaking from across the eastern border. It will take time, but it will not take forever. Work needs to be done to revive our economy, responsibly and with focus.
When the time is right, we shall pursue our fighter procurement plans. It ain't all doom and gloom, like some seem to be drenched in.
Well we guys are survivors. Both have survived far tougher situations. Any one doubting that is deluded.
Regarding beggar part. Please don't focus too much on semantics, the point being we had 90s where everything came to standstill.
Regarding beggar part. Please don't focus too much on semantics, the point being we had 90s where everything came to standstill.