PAF should have bought J-10 instead of JF-17?

S

Student

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vesicles said:
Hmmmmm. Based on what I understand from reading posts in this forum and others, J-10 is DEFINITELY more advanced than JH-7A in aspects of both aerodynamics and avionics; and China has big plans for it. That's why I believe that China will not let anyone else have it until it has something better. This is why, I believe, China won't start selling J-10 until 2014-15 (if the whatever in the media and on the web can be trusted) since, by that time, they will have something better in J-10B. Same reason the US alone keeps the F-22 while letting everyone else have F-35. Both excellent planes, but F-22 is the most advanced and the US would like to enjoy the "edge" as military personnel like to put it. The same rational applies to China. J-10 may mot be the most advanced fighter out there, but it IS the most advanced fighter that China has. And I would imagine China would also like to keep that edge, however little, it has over others.

Also from what I understand, some people keep considering this is a one-way deal: it is all up to the PAF. They can get whatever they want as long as they want it (example? the title of this thread and your comment like "Is JF-17 really had such potential than J-10's?"). The only reason that the PAF doesn't have J-10 yet, based on your rational, would be that PAF doesn't want J-10 and somehow JH-7A is better than J-10. Well, hate to tell this, but doing business involves two parties: the buyer AND the seller. Have you considered the possibility that China does not want to sell NOW.
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Mate we will have to wait till 2012-2014 to present you with a picture of J-10b on Pakistani soil.

PAF Chief Rao Qamar Suliman says that JF-17 will be a significant progress toward meeting its twin objectives i.e accuiring indigenous capablity of building fighter aircraft and strenghening the national defence. It will be all weather multirole aircraft and will carry various conventional and nuclear weapons including BVR and laser guided munition and the newly developed and tested nuclear air launched curise missile with a range of +300km. Wow
:china:
 
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T

taimikhan

New Member
Delbert said:
Yes I know I know... That is the purpose why we are discussing here...

So that if there is someone who had a light can share it to us... Is JF-17 really had such potential than J-10's?
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JF-17 & J-10 are both totally different class of aircraft's. One is smaller & other is a larger version. JF-17 may come into the J-10 avionics league, but in radar, thrust & weapon load categories it will be of no match to J-10s or future PAF FC-20s.
 
Baibar of Jalat

Baibar of Jalat

Junior Member
vesicles said:
Hmmmmm. Based on what I understand from reading posts in this forum and others, J-10 is DEFINITELY more advanced than JH-7A in aspects of both aerodynamics and avionics; and China has big plans for it. That's why I believe that China will not let anyone else have it until it has something better. This is why, I believe, China won't start selling J-10 until 2014-15 (if whatever in the media and on the web can be trusted) since, by that time, they will have something better in J-10B. Same reason the US alone keeps the F-22 while letting everyone else have F-35. Both excellent planes, but F-22 is the most advanced and the US would like to enjoy the "edge" as military personnel like to put it. The same rational applies to China. J-10 may mot be the most advanced fighter out there, but it IS the most advanced fighter that China has. And I would imagine China would also like to keep that edge, however little, it has over others.

Also from what I understand, some people keep considering this is a one-way deal: it is all up to the PAF. They can get whatever they want as long as they want it (example? the title of this thread and comments like "Is JF-17 really had such potential than J-10's?"). The only reason that the PAF doesn't have J-10 yet, based on this line of rational, would be that PAF doesn't want J-10 and somehow JH-7A is better than J-10. Well, hate to tell this, but doing business involves two parties: the buyer AND the seller. Have you considered the possibility that the reason that PAF doesn't have J-10 is that China does not want them to have it NOW?
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PLAAF needs to keep edge over PAF and other friendly nations? lol. Selling or not selling to PAF is not gonna make a difference to its capabilities vs regional airforce threats.

China wants its defence industries to competative and be more independent of Chinese military orders. Being competative in the international market is very important, thus you have sell modern systems. Obviously the electronics will be slightly different for the export models, but not much difference. China is selling KJ 200 to Pakistan, according to your logic this shoud not happen because it has AESA radar?! Politics is another issue too, strengthening PAF is important to counter the recent IAF moves to deploy fighters directed at China and also the China bashing from Indian military and media.

J 10A has a Russian engine and does not exceed capabilities of F 16blk 50s. Once Chinese engine is installed and more advanced radar is in place then PAF is gonna accept into service.

J 10B is gonna enter into PAF service in 2014. You have a weak argument. I will concede the electronics might be different but airframe will be J10B unless it does not enter service with PLAAF. Lastly it would be a boost for Chinese electronics industry, if PAF accepts Chinese radar and avionics over western tech. In the past PAF has added western tech on J 7s. JF 17 has Chinese radar, thus giving the Chinese a boost.
 
M

Munir

Banned Idiot
There are parts that are tested on JF17 and then moved to J10B and the other way around. Look at DSI, MAWS and EM pod on the rudder. PRobably the cockpit layout is also part of that. There is surely parts on the J10 where the JF17 cannot get. It is a bigger and better platform with more hardpoint, ordnance, range and power. And it costs a little more. For PAF the JF17 is to learn to build high performance fighterjets. It has for that reason no composites at the moment and it is build on plug and play ideology. Pakistan can try and learn a lot form it. The J10 would have been a bridge to far. Besides that more costs and lower numbers to replace... As said, JF17 is to replace cheap simple and some three decades old planes. It moves from outdates planes to MAWS, BVR, DSI, Glass cockpit, HMS, IFR etc etc... It may look less for some but tell me how many nations are able to buy or build a plane like this? Like the K8 was seen as an ugly copy of the much better Hawk... We still see that it has a huge market and it is a good plane. Same goes for JF17. If it hits the market then there will be plenty intrest for that price. The J10 will have surely more future but it also needs till 2012 to improve and that is the reason that PAF opts for 36 in 2014/15... I doubt that they will go for the outdagted J10A... The J10A at this moment is a big experiment that needs time and money. And probably an engine...

The FC20 is by PAC seen as the lead when it comes to high low... The F16 block52 is seen as a same but less reliable option... I doubt that J10A is comparable with block52...

Everything that PAF buys is indeed different but not less then Chinese variants. PAF J6 had sidewinders and chute... The F7PG had numerous improvements before China inducted them... We can include the radar that China copied... Though Chinese K8 has composites it is less reliable cause it has no honeywell engine... And I am not usre about the glass cockpit and Hud... The JF17 has no pitot while the Chinese test version has still not removed... But probably has same electronics. J10 needed to be improved, those are the words of our ex ACM and I am pretty sure that no one on the net can write more reliable text... Same ACM said that the AWACS (KJ200) needed cockpit improvements... You guys saw KJ2000 and KJ200 cockpits and don't tell me that KJ200 is less...

Honestly I do believe that China is improving rapidly and it has comparable technology but it still lacks in some developments. Matter of time. But telling that the PAF goes for less or lower technology... Baseless. Hot air. Waste of time.
 
S

Student

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vesicles said:
I won't hold my breathe :D:D:D
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Good for you.:D:D:D:china:

MOD delete!!***************************************

Try google terms China is beyond technological threashold.:china:

Student If you insult the leadership of SDF again you shall be banned. A warning shall be issued.

bd popeye super moderator
 
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tphuang

tphuang

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Student said:
The first foreign buyer of the J-10A will be Pakistan, a source from the Chinese aviation industry said. In March, Pakistan’s Air Chief Marshall Tanvir MehmoodAhmed confirmed that a deal with China had been reached, and the aircraft would be delivered in 2014 and 2015. The version for Pakistan will be called the FC-20. UPI Asia. (Andrei Chang is editor-in-chief of Kanwa Defense Review Monthly, registered in Toronto, Canada. John Wu is a reporter for the same magazine.):china:
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I'm not saying that Pakistan won't be the first foreign buyer of J-10, but Kanwa is not a great source as all.

Baibar of Jalat said:
Any claims to deny it? Politics is bigger, overrules everything else. Remember PLA is subservent to CCP.

Found this article on China Defence Blog, it is not 100% proof but it added more fuel on the debate.

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Notice how this article conflicts with the first one, since this one implies China is exporting J-10B whereas the first one export J-10A? Again, don't use this as your gospel.

taimikhan said:
First of the PAF designation for J-10 is FC-20 & the specifications told about it by no other then PAF Cief himself are much more advanced then the current configuration the operational J-10s have as this aircraft is going to come around 2014-2015 in PAF service, enough time of about 5 years to upgrade the J-10 to a true 4.5th gen capability.

" ACM Qamar said the PAF has finalised the technical proposal for the FC-20 and informed the Chinese of its requirements."[The technical proposal] is more or less finalised now. There are some changes that are required, which [the Chinese] are making," he said.
.
The next stage of the contract will involve financial negotiations between China and Pakistan. ACM Qamar believes that, following the signing of a contract, it will take two to two-and-a-half years before the first FC-20 aircraft is received"

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And the reason for PAF to go for JF-17 is it needs to have medium tech & high tech combination as no air force in the world is fully equipped with high tech planes only, these is always a combination of medium-high tech aircrafts & PAF main focus is IAF as an adversary, we have to counter them. Plus, the true capability of JF-17 in terms of its fighting potential is still not revealed & it has much much room for further improvements & upgrades. Western Avionics are still on the table for it & engine change a possibility too. JF-17 has a very promising potential to become a true high tech aircraft in future.

PAF & China are not stupids to have gone with JF-17 when J-10 was around, there must be some reason to it, which the people at PAF & China understand better then all of us over here speculating.
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I would say a direct interview with PAF ACM is pretty good, because it shows exactly Pakistani view of things. So, what do we know about J-10 and PAF? PAF is looking for around 36 J-10s, which will be designated FC-20, for 2014-2015. The exact specifications is not known, but we can only assume that it will be based on either J-10A or J-10B with certain modifications to suit PAF. Of course, PAF will have to decide the exact configuration based on not only capability, its own requirements but also cost.

Munir said:
There are parts that are tested on JF17 and then moved to J10B and the other way around. Look at DSI, MAWS and EM pod on the rudder. PRobably the cockpit layout is also part of that. There is surely parts on the J10 where the JF17 cannot get. It is a bigger and better platform with more hardpoint, ordnance, range and power. And it costs a little more. For PAF the JF17 is to learn to build high performance fighterjets. It has for that reason no composites at the moment and it is build on plug and play ideology. Pakistan can try and learn a lot form it. The J10 would have been a bridge to far. Besides that more costs and lower numbers to replace... As said, JF17 is to replace cheap simple and some three decades old planes. It moves from outdates planes to MAWS, BVR, DSI, Glass cockpit, HMS, IFR etc etc... It may look less for some but tell me how many nations are able to buy or build a plane like this? Like the K8 was seen as an ugly copy of the much better Hawk... We still see that it has a huge market and it is a good plane. Same goes for JF17. If it hits the market then there will be plenty intrest for that price. The J10 will have surely more future but it also needs till 2012 to improve and that is the reason that PAF opts for 36 in 2014/15... I doubt that they will go for the outdagted J10A... The J10A at this moment is a big experiment that needs time and money. And probably an engine...

The FC20 is by PAC seen as the lead when it comes to high low... The F16 block52 is seen as a same but less reliable option... I doubt that J10A is comparable with block52...

Everything that PAF buys is indeed different but not less then Chinese variants. PAF J6 had sidewinders and chute... The F7PG had numerous improvements before China inducted them... We can include the radar that China copied... Though Chinese K8 has composites it is less reliable cause it has no honeywell engine... And I am not usre about the glass cockpit and Hud... The JF17 has no pitot while the Chinese test version has still not removed... But probably has same electronics. J10 needed to be improved, those are the words of our ex ACM and I am pretty sure that no one on the net can write more reliable text... Same ACM said that the AWACS (KJ200) needed cockpit improvements... You guys saw KJ2000 and KJ200 cockpits and don't tell me that KJ200 is less...

Honestly I do believe that China is improving rapidly and it has comparable technology but it still lacks in some developments. Matter of time. But telling that the PAF goes for less or lower technology... Baseless. Hot air. Waste of time.
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lol, KJ-200 is not inferior to KJ-2000, because it has a nicer cockpit. Speechless. The one offered to PAF is not the balance beam one, but the rotodome one (that's why it's called ZDK-03, not KJ-200).

Why don't you spend less time beating your chest about what PAF needs and doesn't need. Spend more time thinking about how much budget PAF has and what it can realistically afford?
 
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