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Brumby said:

Your reasoning is a bit strange when discussing universal suffrage in the selection of a CE in HK. There is a diversity of population having to choose a CE (with limit term) from competing candidates in a multi party system and yet your conclusion is that too much power rest in the people as opposed to competing power with the different checks and balances. I have to say I find it hard to comprehend your logic.

Please clarify what corruption are you referring to and why that statement has any relevance.

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You said absolute power corrupts absolutely, yet giving people the absolute power is what universal sufferage is about. You claimed checks and balances, but universal sufferage means popular opinions can run unchecked. Clearly, the argument for universal sufferage is in contradiction of itself. People who are unable to realize such a huge smack of self contradiction demonstrate their own incomprehension in logic.

Under universal sufferage, politicians will not only be corrupted to money but also to fame. To illustrate, individuals from the OC movement have accepted money from US NGOs. They try to out-do each other in being disobedience which serves to hurt rather than improve livelihood of common people. So right from the beginning, these people became corrupted to immediate personal gains rather than long term future of their people.

unfair_reality said:

Any US governors who publicly calls for succession from the Union will be arrested by FBI and I think the same will happen to any CE who would do such a thing. But governors can run the state the way they see fit within confines of the Constitution regardless what they think of the President or which party they belong to. I think if universal suffrage goes ahead in HK, it will be no different. Instead of killing the whole thing because one thing might go wrong one day, it is much better to put in place regulation that prevent that one specific problem rather than killing the whole enterprise.

What happened over the last year has undoubtedly alienate a significant portion of the population. For those who fear foreign influence, we now have a disenfranchised, young, well educated population with good language skills, passports to travel freely to China and the West, blend in easily with the population, who now require a lot less convincing to join the other team. I would be very surprise if they don't drink to that in this year's MI5 Xmas party. Loyalty can't be bought or coerced, it comes only when you convince the other side you are on the same team. Because if you don't do it, UK and USA will be more than happy to.

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If you've read my posts since the beginning, I am in favour of universal suffrage with regulations.

In a way that is exactly what the 2017 proposal was.

Anyone else notice how in western media reporting, HK is almost always described as a "Chinese controlled city", not simply a "Chinese City"?

Its a small but important difference, and goes a long way to explaining the mentality at work for many.

plawolf said:

Anyone else notice how in western media reporting, HK is almost always described as a "Chinese controlled city", not simply a "Chinese City"?

Its a small but important difference, and goes a long way to explaining the mentality at work for many.

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Yes I've personally long noticed that. Not only that. A few other examples include "state-owned/controlled" descriptor whenever they're quoting Chinese media, "communist" descriptor whenever referring to Chinese government or officials, descriptor "spiritual leader" whenever referring to the Dalai Lama, or how the Chinese government "invaded" Tibet in 1950, without any reference to history prior to that. Quotation marks are also added to terrorism/terrorist attack whenever it happened within China's borders, and they must mention that somehow Tibetan/Uighur culture are endangered by Han Chinese present in Tibet and Xinjiang. Wenzhou train incident is a must whenever discussion of Chinese high-speed railways is at concern, and similarly Tiananmen "massacre" will be mentioned whenever there's any kind of protest in China.

It doesn't matter if it's British news outlet or American or any Western English speaking country, whenever I see news about China these little things just kept appearing again and again and again.

In Singapore newspapers, the tone and words and phrases used are much more neutral and non-ideological. As a result, when asked about impressions of China the Chinese people, these things seldom get mentioned by Singaporeans. Their impressions are more to do with the Chinese people they actually interact, or sights they witnessed for themselves when they traveled to China.

What's brainwashing? Keep repeating the same message subtly again and again, until no one questions it any more.

The Chinese have long learned to do away with the whole ideological nonsense, but to me, and indeed to many Chinese people, the Americans are still deeply ideological and anything that's in any way "communist" or even "socialist" is almost automatically bad.

plawolf said:

Anyone else notice how in western media reporting, HK is almost always described as a "Chinese controlled city", not simply a "Chinese City"?

Its a small but important difference, and goes a long way to explaining the mentality at work for many.

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That is why I don't trust a lot of western media. It's funny how they even claim that the People's Daily is an absolute propaganda for the CPC with no validity, such hypocrites, like their sh....t doesn't stink.

Doombreed said:

So what's the problem? Why so hang up on this whole nominating committee thing? Give Hong Kong universal sufferage and everyone's happy. The CCP would look reasonable, magnanimous and reformed. Hell, Hong Kong election is a glorified Mayoral election anyway. What are they gonna do? Seceded? Turn the water off! What the CCP is doing now with the "patriotism" clause, just stinks of paranoia. It's echoing Brezhnev, which only paved the way for Gorbachev.

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LOL, echoing Brezhnev? Perhaps it's echoing JFK, "ask not what your country can do for you but what can you do for your country".

Public officials the world over are required to be "patriotic" in some way, China is not doing anything out of the ordinary in Hong Kong.

Why be so hung up about the nominating committee? You should pose that question to the protesters, they should be OK with the proposed arrangement and then would look much more reasonable than they do now.

PanAsian said:

LOL, echoing Brezhnev? Perhaps it's echoing JFK, "ask not what your country can do for you but what can you do for your country".

Public officials the world over are required to be "patriotic" in some way, China is not doing anything out of the ordinary in Hong Kong.

Why be so hung up about the nominating committee? You should pose that question to the protesters, they should be OK with the proposed arrangement and then would look much more reasonable than they do now.

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The way those protesters pleaded London to intervene, we can say that they do know "patriotic", alas their allegiance is to the Union Jack, that's all.

Perhaps that'd help most people to understand a thing or two...

Complete amateurs. They don't know how to conduct a protest and now they don't know what a hunger strike means. Can't enjoy attention if they're dead.

AssassinsMace said:

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Complete amateurs. They don't know how to conduct a protest and now they don't know what a hunger strike means. Can't enjoy attention if they're dead.

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Self-immolation or harakiri would be more appropriate. What the heck!, any doctor would advise to stop it after 1-2 days. I thought he did say he would keep the hunger strike until the HK govt ready to talk to him ... sorry, 4.5 days is just too short, 2 months may take some attention of politicians. Honestly he doesn't look unwell to me, he doesn't look like a teenager boy without eating for 4.5 days.

wait, wait ......
quote " .... Wong, 18, who had been only drinking water and energy drinks ... "

energy drink will a lot of sugar and others .... is it a new and modern hunger strike? ... and only lasted 4.5 days?????

what a pussy!