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Doombreed said:

What are you on about? Look at the top ten. All democracies.

1 Denmark
2 Norway
3 Switzerland
4 Netherlands
5 Sweden
6 Canada
7 Finland
8 Austria
9 Iceland
10 Australia
...
13 New Zealand

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There are also democracies at the bottom of the list, and many other lists. Let's take , then screen it against . Starting with the most corrupt, we have:

1. Myanmar
2. Zimbabwe
3. Cambodia
4. Eritrea
5. Venezuela
6. Chad
7. Equatorial Guinea
8. Guinea Bissau
9. Haiti
10. Yemen
11. Syria
12. Turkmenistan
13. Uzbekistan
14. Iraq
15. Libya
16. SouthSudan
17. Sudan
18. Afghanistan

So, ten democracies made it into the top twenty most corrupted countries. If a similar line to your argument were to be followed, democracies must also be corrupted.

The issue of an argument based on correlating democracies with happiness index, or other lists for that matter, is that . Two of the six criteria in the happiness index are related to wealth, not democracy. One of the criteria relates to self-determination, but this is not exclusive to picking a political leader. Arguably, your list tells us that happiness is a function of purchasing power, and has little to do with democracies.

Doombreed said:

I'm just pointing out that calling democracy a religion is intellectually dishonest.

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Not so. It is calling a spade a spade. To believe in something without scientific data is to believe based on faith.

Doombreed said:

View attachment 10765
Chinese exceptionalism then? Somehow the Chinese have needs and desires that are different to other people in the world. Somehow when Chinese live and work like any other people in the world, they don't want democracy.

No one is saying give China multi party politics right now. The need for self determination is a universal value. Every people would want it when living in similar situations.

And to bring it back onto topic. This is what the Hong Kong people wants now! They are no different to the Chinese on the mainland. But their social developelemt has achieved a level that is similar to people in New Zealand, or the Nordics, or Europe. That's why they seek self determination.

Who are you to say that they're wrong? Or that they don't deserve it? Or that they can't handle it?

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Since when has self-determination changed its meaning to the ability of choosing a political leader? Job, where to live, what to buy, what to eat, what to study, what to spend your free time on, who to date, who to marry, the list goes on and on and the ability to pick a political leader is just one. Unlike other items that I have listed, picking a leader has no direct consequence to a person's life. Self-determination exists perfectly without democracy.

You can critique democracy all you want. You can prove empirically, intellectually, and morally how democracy is the worst form of government. (except for everything else we tried)

It all comes down to this. The Hong Kong people is now asking for democracy. You have made a decision, through your thoughful anaylsis, that democracy isn't for them. Who are you to make that statement? They are not your kids. They are your peers. Who made you master and commander of the fate of 7 million people in Hong Kong?

The people of Hong Kong has asked. That is good enough for me.

Doombreed said:

You can critique democracy all you want. You can prove empirically, intellectually, and morally how democracy is the worst form of government. (except for everything else we tried)

It all comes down to this. The Hong Kong people is now asking for democracy. You have made a decision, through your thoughful anaylsis, that democracy isn't for them. Who are you to make that statement? They are not your kids. They are your peers. Who made you master and commander of the fate of 7 million people in Hong Kong?

The people of Hong Kong has asked. That is good enough for me.

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Hong Kong already has democracy. What some people asking for right now is not democracy, but to have things done entirely their way. These same people employ means taking away the rights of others. That kind of attitude is not democracy-like. Furthermore, when the rights of others are violated, then freedom is infringed upon. Freedom must come before democracy.

kwaigonegin said:

I concur with everything you said however I don't necessarily see it as a good thing. Imagine a bird in a cage. The owner feeds it the best bird food money can buy, he takes it out everyday to play, buys all kinds of bird toys and what not, keep it safe at all times. If the bird is sick he takes it to the best vet in the country.. basically the bird doesn't EVER have to worry about looking for his own food, fear of other predators or worry about building a nest etc. He will probably live longer than most birds in the wild and die of old age.

Do you want to be that bird? I don't.

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Freedom comes in many aspects. There are freedom to engage in political activities, there are freedom to travel, there are freedom of ownership of properties, and there are freedom of being able to choose one's life style.

Many of human freedoms come with economic prosperity: like the freedom to have holidays wherever you want to go, and like having the freedom to enjoy fine food and wine with your family at times of your choosing, etc etc. If you ask a person in the US living on food stamps, on what he would prefer? Living on food stamps, and being able to express his political opinions loud and clear in Times Square; or earn a more decent living in Singapore, with a stable job, earning and being able to have his own property, a car to travel around, start a family and give his family a decent life, in exchange for not being able to freely express his political views in public, what would he choose?

Would he be considering himself to be less free in Singapore?

Life is full of compromises. The very nature of human society imposes restrictions on certain freedom of activity: you are generally not free to commit crimes, you are not free to insult others, and you are not free to act outside of society norms without facing many difficulties including facing stigma.

Bird in guided cage is a poor comparison. It is all about priorities. Do you want put priority in decent and improving living conditions, or in ideology?

I like how the freedom and democracy advocate tells people to zip it. Guess who wants to control what people can say? It's like Pavlov's dog. The dog doesn't know what the bell ringing means. It's just know when it hears the sound, it's time to eat. Some people don't know the meaning of the words they speak. They just know the sound of that is associated with something. Freedom and democracy is just something good to hide behind where no one is suppose to question and challenge. That's all it means to them or they wouldn't be telling people to zip it. Like I mentioned before if the truth is on one's side, there would be no need to lie. And also if what you believed cannot be argued, then one wouldn't have to be telling people to shut up. Your arguments should be able to take on all challenges.

Doombreed said:

What are you on about? Look at the top ten. All democracies.

1 Denmark
2 Norway
3 Switzerland
4 Netherlands
5 Sweden
6 Canada
7 Finland
8 Austria
9 Iceland
10 Australia
...
13 New Zealand

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The countries in the list are all called democratic despite the fact that they have very different political systems that wouldn't be recognized as similar without scores of years of propaganda. Take #3 and #4: countries of similar size but with very different political mechanisms.

Doombreed;315495The [B said:

people of Hong Kong[/B] has asked.

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Over 1.5 million sign petition against Occupy Central in HK | Shanghai Daily


The Hong Kong people have spoken. Since you're a staunch promoter and defender of democracy, I ask that you respect their wishes.

Doombreed said:

What are you on about? Look at the top ten. All democracies.

1 Denmark
2 Norway
3 Switzerland
4 Netherlands
5 Sweden
6 Canada
7 Finland
8 Austria
9 Iceland
10 Australia
...
13 New Zealand

Click to expand...

True .... but those get rich and educated first and then democracy.

How about India? India is the biggest democracy country, quite mess really

What is the ranking of India? better than China?