News on China's scientific and technological development.

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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Chish said:
American consumption of domestic consumables is not growing as fast as many of the developing countries and Trump is manipulating the market by forcing Americans to buy or use local products by means of tariffs, sanctions, penalties, forced ownership (national security).
Here capitalism is working against itself. The rich, manufacturers, traders,investors are maximizing profits out of the locals because of the controlled market. Kind of legalised monopoly.
The consumers have little options but to accept higher cost for less while the same products overseas are getting cheaper, being produced by developing countries in an open market system. More efficient because of scale, large pool of cheap & skilled labor, materials and a world wide supply chain network and demand. Thus American companies have to maintain overseas manufacturing to remain competitive. This doesn't benefit the local Americans and goes against Trump policy.
In conclusion, American would inevitable be undermining its own economy by the very actions Trump is taking to "protect" Americans and at the same time losing world market shares. Many American companies are already feeling the consequences now and are taking legal action against Trump but the damages have already been done. Majority of customers live outside of USA.
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There is no market between countries, only international agreements about investment flow, money exchange , laws governing the purchase of government bond by foreigners and so on .

So, saying things like "free international market" is like saying market based government taxation system.
Neither exist.


The current international monetary and trade relations exist because the USA, as the biggest economy in the world did the next steps 1971 :

- Ended the gold backing of the dollar
-made it possible to foreigners buy USA investment vehicles, private or government without restrictions
-made it possible for anyone to export to the USA


These three point made the current world order, governed the development of China, Taiwan and so on, and this starting to crumble in the front of our eyes.

And it will destroy the known international order as well.
 
N

nugroho

Junior Member
Anlsvrthng said:
It is quite interesting.

I get my hand onto an old French designed PC from 88.

It has very interesting mainboard, the PCB traces and pads very different from the USA/IBM/Taiwanese PCBs, not only the finishing, but the lead/fan out of traces, the pads shape.

Visibly the software used to design the PCBs was completely different for the French company than for the USA/Asian manufacturers.

I can't imagine how high investment would be needed now to replace half century worth of toolsets, software, tool manufacturers .
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This time is the most dangerous time for China semiconductors, China goverment (CCP ) will exert every effort they can, money will be given to this sector beyond your imagination. Experts will be called from all over the world, a lot of money to hire them, those what we knew. What we did not know is more than we can imagine I think.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
via vincent posting on cjdby by Havok
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correct me last time. The national production verification line completed in 2022 is 28nm node, not 14nm. 14nm is the third phase of the R&D center. ...
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更正一下我上次说错了，这个2022年完工的全国产验证线是28nm节点，不是14nm。14nm是研发中心三期的项目。
还有28nm光刻机的镜头已经好了但还没发运，出厂仪式在节后举行。

补充：这条线建设地点在嘉定工业区，占地13万平米，是月投片2万片的12英寸集成电路芯片生产线，28nm节点，属于国家级项目。采用国产光刻机（包括800系列的多种型号），已准备开建了。

The building of the fully indigenous 28nm production line in 嘉定 will start soon. To be completed in 2022. The production capacity is 20k of 12 inch wafers per month.

Supplement: The construction site of this line is in Jiading Industrial Zone, covering an area of 130,000 square meters. It is a 12-inch integrated circuit chip production line with a monthly production capacity of 20,000 pieces and a 28nm node. It is a national project. Using domestic photoetching machines (including multiple models of the 800 series), it is ready to start construction.
 
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A

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
nugroho said:
This time is the most dangerous time for China semiconductors, China goverment (CCP ) will exert every effort they can, money will be given to this sector beyond your imagination. Experts will be called from all over the world, a lot of money to hire them, those what we knew. What we did not know is more than we can imagine I think.
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I think it is safe to say it won't help too much .

China will need intensive, 5 years long run, during it it will need 10-100 times more money to catch up to the USA at 2025 than required by the USA to continue the trend as it did.

It will be a huge investment, and the worst part of it is if any small detail of the picture late, then the whole project will be late.
 
W

Weaasel

Senior Member
Registered Member
WTAN said:
This is good news for China's Semiconductor Industry.

Yes....now SMIC, Huawei,YMTC & other FABs will work together with the Chinese Academy of Sciences (Changchun Institute) and SMEE to develop the latest DUV and EUV Lithographs. They will also ensure that a fully China made Chip production line will be developed and verified. This will provide plenty of Jobs and also give many opportunities for many Startups to go into Business.

I think Donald Trump will be fondly remembered in China as the American President who personally made sure that China developed its own EDA, EUV Lithograph, Semiconductors, Aircraft Turbofan Engines, Airliners etc.

I think there will be technical cooperation between Huawei and SMIC but i believe Huawei will go ahead to build its own FABs. Huawei will base its business model on Samsung and enter the FAB Business. Huawei has the financial resources to develop the latest Chips and be competitive. Together with the launch of the Open Source Harmony OS next year, this will be the beginning of big things for Huawei.

Recently Mr. Ni Guangnan, Computer Science Expert and Academician with the Chinese Academy of Engineering (CAS) confirmed that the SMEE 28nm Lithograph has been successfully developed. This means that this Lithograph is real and will be released next year.
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China should not depend on a single foreign manufactured component for its semiconductor, IC chip, and semiconductor and IC chip manufacturing equipment demand. The ENTIRE supply chain should be domestic for this. Foreign countries are all amenable to US pressure even when their companies make goods and parts entirely devoid of US content.
 
A

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
styx said:
but remember we are reaching the physical limits of the silicon and the end of moore law
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Problem is there are half century worth of designs, IPs and so on in the possession of the USA , so when we talk about difficulty to manufacture it is not just about cutting edge, but several cases old technology, that require special quirks to make the desired products.

Like radhard electronics, high power amplifier and so on.

Like the move of the USA to forbid machien sales to the Rusnano for the MRAM production line.

That is a "primitive" one, on 45nm, but without special machines it is not possible to make the MRAMs
 
horse

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
mderfox said:
Its not that easy.
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It is that easy for SMIC.

They take all the money everyone is throwing at them, and use that money to buy entire Chinese made production line.

Then they install that in the same garage as their current production line, running it in parallel.

Whatever is made out of that warehouse is made in China, by SMIC, sold to Huawei who also inside China.

While they doing that, the day to day business operations, they can also have their engineers tweak their systems to learn a thing or two.
 
T

TD739

Junior Member
Registered Member
TD739 said:
Huawei may consider buy out SMIC outright and take it off the market. Stock price has affected SMIC decision making as it try to protect it's shareholder rather than thinking strategically . Hisilicon one hand and SMIC on another will enhance Huawei significantly.
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Once Huawei got control of SMIC then it could license out SMIC 14nm process tech to other domestic player like grace or huahong.
Likewise it should license its hisilicon IP porfolio to xiaomi , vivo, tencent or Alibaba.
The key is the spreadout the seed and like a wild fire to enable other smaller players to join. That's the definition of grassroot movement. Not just the top players but also the mid and low level players.
 
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