manqiangrexue
Brigadier
It's not about compensation; it's about them making the lithograph and possibly its downstream products illegal on the international market under the reason of IP infringement. Essentially, they'd be treated like bootlegs.
News on China's scientific and technological development.
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Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
You keep singing the praise to US dominance in semiconductor when in reality US leadership in semiconductor is declining. As of today only 12% of all US chips demand is manufactured in US . The never ending delay of Intel 10 nm chip show that US is NOT in the lead anymore
The embargo and bullying on semiconductor technology to China does not show a self confidence of a domineering and successful technical giant Instead it show declining country
The truth is other than anything you said US leadership is semiconductor is the result of direct result of government effort to build small computer for Apollo program back in the 60's where they need small and compact computer to guide the space craft . And the huge effort in WWII to build radar and electronic warfare center on Stanford university in California . So many of the early pioneer in semiconductor naturally emanate from SFO bay area. Hewlet packard, Fairchild semiconductor the grand dady of all the semiconductor companies, personal computer pioneer Altair,Apple Steve job, Xerox parc reasearch, Berkeley etc all are in SFO bay area.
Not counting billion of dollar in government grant and research mostly weapon related to those Universities and companies in Bay area. The missile and rocket industries center on Lockheed facility in bay area
Yes government subsidy play an important role in shepherding a new technology. China was behind because she was a poor countries and was late in the game. People forget that China was backward and isolated until 1970's and University didn't reopen its door until early in 1980's. Yes good university is important that is why China expand the the university education maybe 100 fold since 1980
And China didn't have high tech industry until late 1990 after all Huawei was founded only in 1987. So all those talk of China cannot invent and government subsidy is useless is BS
TO THOSE WITH MUCH KNOWLEDGE ON THE ISSUE, WHAT IS IT THAT MAKES EUV LITHOGRAPHY SO DIFFICULT AND CAN OTHER UV PROCESSES WITH APPROPRIATE PATTERN STEPPING ALSO RESULT IN NODES OF 7nm OR FINER?
"Here access to cutting edge tools that remain under the control of the US government because they contain US-origin IP (intellectual property) will be the limiting factor for China," Triolo said. "No amount of government investment can overcome restrictions on tools like extreme ultraviolet lithography, for example, which is currently being denied for China's leading foundry SMIC."
What is quoted here is the final paragraph of an article from CNBC that expresses doubts that the Chinese government's financial assistance and policies such as tax breaks towards IC chip manufacturing equipment makers and IC chip makers will get the desired results of rapidly improving the capability and quality of Chinese entities in producing the most state of the art equipment and chips.
What is quoted seems to assume that without access the US intellectual property, Chinese entities will be unable to use their already existing knowledge of science and technology to do applied research and development and experimentation to make a breakthrough in EUV lithography. The narrative here is like so many narratives that China cannot figure it out without the minute details being shared or without espionage.
Obviously, EUV lithography is very difficult. But why is it so difficult, and can other UV processes be used in combination with other process steps like better pattern making on photomasks and multiple pattern steps be used to produce the same results qualitatively and performance wise on chips as EUV lithography?
Furthermore, have Chinese entities achieved high quality with regards to deposition of conductor materials into the trenches of wafers?
"Here access to cutting edge tools that remain under the control of the US government because they contain US-origin IP (intellectual property) will be the limiting factor for China," Triolo said. "No amount of government investment can overcome restrictions on tools like extreme ultraviolet lithography, for example, which is currently being denied for China's leading foundry SMIC."
What is quoted here is the final paragraph of an article from CNBC that expresses doubts that the Chinese government's financial assistance and policies such as tax breaks towards IC chip manufacturing equipment makers and IC chip makers will get the desired results of rapidly improving the capability and quality of Chinese entities in producing the most state of the art equipment and chips.
What is quoted seems to assume that without access the US intellectual property, Chinese entities will be unable to use their already existing knowledge of science and technology to do applied research and development and experimentation to make a breakthrough in EUV lithography. The narrative here is like so many narratives that China cannot figure it out without the minute details being shared or without espionage.
Obviously, EUV lithography is very difficult. But why is it so difficult, and can other UV processes be used in combination with other process steps like better pattern making on photomasks and multiple pattern steps be used to produce the same results qualitatively and performance wise on chips as EUV lithography?
Furthermore, have Chinese entities achieved high quality with regards to deposition of conductor materials into the trenches of wafers?
Aside from FAB manufacturing Chips, Huawei is investing a lot, hopefully it had the manpower and resources in other field.
From cnTechPost
Huawei is putting huge resources in R&D of LIDAR technology
2020-08-11 20:52:16 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
1
Huawei's optoelectronic technology research center in Wuhan, where a total of more than 10,000 employees work, is developing LIDAR technology, said Wang Jun, president of Huawei Intelligent Automotive Solutions BU.
The goal is to develop a 100-line LIDAR in the short term, Wang Jun said at the 12th Automotive Blue Book Forum.
Future plans are to reduce the cost of LIDAR to $200 or even $100, he said.
In June last year, Huawei announced the establishment of Smart Car Solutions BU, which is under the management of the ICT Management Committee. The division is positioned to provide ICT components and solutions for smart cars to help car companies build better cars.
BU is a tier-one department alongside BG in Huawei's organizational structure. So far, Huawei now has three major BGs: Carrier BG, Enterprise BG, and Consumer BG, as well as two BUs: Cloud&AI Products and Services BU and Smart Car Solutions BU.
LIDAR is a crucial sensor in automated driving, and the more threads there are, the more high-end and accurate it is.
LIDAR is a sensor used to obtain accurate three-dimensional position information, just like the human eye, which can determine the position, size, external shape, and even material of objects.
It consists of a transmitting system, a receiving system, and three parts of information processing.
Its working principle is to emit a detection signal to the target, and then the received signal reflected back from the target, so as to obtain information about the target, such as distance, orientation, height, speed, attitude, and even shape of the target and other parameters.
Xu Zhijun, Huawei's rotating chairman, had said at the World Smart Connected Car Conference Summit Forum that Huawei will build LIDAR, millimeter-wave radar and other smart car core sensors to create a new sensor ecology.
Huawei will use its own 5G technology to develop millimeter-wave radar to enable all-weather imaging. Huawei will also make full use of the world's leading optoelectronic technology to develop LIDAR to truly solve the cost and performance problems faced by radars, he said.
From cnTechPost
Huawei is putting huge resources in R&D of LIDAR technology
2020-08-11 20:52:16 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
1
Huawei's optoelectronic technology research center in Wuhan, where a total of more than 10,000 employees work, is developing LIDAR technology, said Wang Jun, president of Huawei Intelligent Automotive Solutions BU.
The goal is to develop a 100-line LIDAR in the short term, Wang Jun said at the 12th Automotive Blue Book Forum.
Future plans are to reduce the cost of LIDAR to $200 or even $100, he said.
In June last year, Huawei announced the establishment of Smart Car Solutions BU, which is under the management of the ICT Management Committee. The division is positioned to provide ICT components and solutions for smart cars to help car companies build better cars.
BU is a tier-one department alongside BG in Huawei's organizational structure. So far, Huawei now has three major BGs: Carrier BG, Enterprise BG, and Consumer BG, as well as two BUs: Cloud&AI Products and Services BU and Smart Car Solutions BU.
LIDAR is a crucial sensor in automated driving, and the more threads there are, the more high-end and accurate it is.
LIDAR is a sensor used to obtain accurate three-dimensional position information, just like the human eye, which can determine the position, size, external shape, and even material of objects.
It consists of a transmitting system, a receiving system, and three parts of information processing.
Its working principle is to emit a detection signal to the target, and then the received signal reflected back from the target, so as to obtain information about the target, such as distance, orientation, height, speed, attitude, and even shape of the target and other parameters.
Xu Zhijun, Huawei's rotating chairman, had said at the World Smart Connected Car Conference Summit Forum that Huawei will build LIDAR, millimeter-wave radar and other smart car core sensors to create a new sensor ecology.
Huawei will use its own 5G technology to develop millimeter-wave radar to enable all-weather imaging. Huawei will also make full use of the world's leading optoelectronic technology to develop LIDAR to truly solve the cost and performance problems faced by radars, he said.
You believe that the paradigm that you have listed must be absolutely followed with all its points included for China to have success...
Man, how many times have persons told you that the extent of the options and prescriptions that you listed are not available to China because of fear, suspicion, and hostility by the West, especially the United States in terms of China's great likelihood and huge potential to surpass the United States as the leading economy and preeminent power in the world due primarily due to its human resources, its vast domestic market, and the generally cohesive nature of its internal politics?
China has no choice but to ensure that it has the capability of producing anything that is worth producing domestically, so as not be subject to blackmail by foreign countries. The United States is intimidating other countries and entities from other countries not to sell things that it does not want China to possess and it does so with regards to technologies which China is either greatly dependent on imports for, or which it does not produce of quality comparable to that which American allies make. However, if China can demonstrate the capability of producing such high tech goods, the leverage of those US aligned countries against China will be lost, and American allies, most of whom do not want to go along with the cold war against China will likely rebel against US bullying and cajoling. If China does produce an EUV lithography Machine of capability similar to what ASML does now, within a few years, and ASML has not much improved the quality of its EUV technology, ASML will certainly be willing to sell its latest EUV lith machine to China, and the Dutch government will likely not listen to the nonsense that selling such a machine is a threat to Dutch National Security. The United States can continue to define it as a threat to its National Security, but how is the sale of EUV lithography machines to China a threat to Dutch Security?
It will actually serve China's interests to purchase a significant share of high tech goods from foreign countries of the types that it itself can also make. If China does have these capabilities and does purchase high tech goods from US Allies, an American administration has the option of continuing to pressure it allies to stop selling their goods, under the threat of sanctions. Those Allies may capitulate, but they might not do so. They could decide to purchase alternatives available from China. The United States risks turning Allies into enemies with such a policy, especially if it ramps it up to trying to blockade such countries, which given the way things are trending is a probability down the line. But even if that does not happen, China will its own replete set of high tech alternatives for its own domestic market.
Aside from FAB manufacturing Chips, Huawei is investing a lot, hopefully it had the manpower and resources in other field.
From cnTechPost
Huawei is putting huge resources in R&D of LIDAR technology
2020-08-11 20:52:16 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
1
Huawei's optoelectronic technology research center in Wuhan, where a total of more than 10,000 employees work, is developing LIDAR technology, said Wang Jun, president of Huawei Intelligent Automotive Solutions BU.
The goal is to develop a 100-line LIDAR in the short term, Wang Jun said at the 12th Automotive Blue Book Forum.
Future plans are to reduce the cost of LIDAR to $200 or even $100, he said.
In June last year, Huawei announced the establishment of Smart Car Solutions BU, which is under the management of the ICT Management Committee. The division is positioned to provide ICT components and solutions for smart cars to help car companies build better cars.
BU is a tier-one department alongside BG in Huawei's organizational structure. So far, Huawei now has three major BGs: Carrier BG, Enterprise BG, and Consumer BG, as well as two BUs: Cloud&AI Products and Services BU and Smart Car Solutions BU.
LIDAR is a crucial sensor in automated driving, and the more threads there are, the more high-end and accurate it is.
LIDAR is a sensor used to obtain accurate three-dimensional position information, just like the human eye, which can determine the position, size, external shape, and even material of objects.
It consists of a transmitting system, a receiving system, and three parts of information processing.
Its working principle is to emit a detection signal to the target, and then the received signal reflected back from the target, so as to obtain information about the target, such as distance, orientation, height, speed, attitude, and even shape of the target and other parameters.
Xu Zhijun, Huawei's rotating chairman, had said at the World Smart Connected Car Conference Summit Forum that Huawei will build LIDAR, millimeter-wave radar and other smart car core sensors to create a new sensor ecology.
Huawei will use its own 5G technology to develop millimeter-wave radar to enable all-weather imaging. Huawei will also make full use of the world's leading optoelectronic technology to develop LIDAR to truly solve the cost and performance problems faced by radars, he said.
Do the IC chips utilized in this require EUV lithography machines to be made, or chips of nodes of 14nm or less? Any type of LIDAR that requires extensive use of foreign made tech components which China does not possess or cannot replicate is a HUGE risk...
EUV photons are basically “soft” x-rays, so they’re much shorter wavelength higher energy photons than “UV” light. DUV (or Deep UV), the previous lithography standard, generates photons with wavelengths at 193 nm. EUV is at 13.5 nm. Smaller wavelengths let you etch finer details. The wavelength of your photons are like the size of your pen tips for lithographic purposes. The main reason EUV is so challenging is because generating light at 13.5 nm in adequate amounts is difficult. You can’t use a direct source like a gas-chemical laser or lamp. Instead you need to generate a plasma that can be energized at the right levels to release photons at that particular wavelength. The simpler method for generating the necessary wavelengths is with discharge produced plasma (DPP), but this method also tends to produce less light. The more complicated method is laser produced plasma (LPP). This method has better light output but is more complicated. ASML went with LPP, which is what that shooting a laser beam at droplets of molten tin stuff is about. In ASML’s case, partially in order to compensate for a weaker light source and partially due to the inherent difficulties of directing and focusing x-rays, they also moved away from refractive optics to collect and focus their light for their scanners, which tends to lose you more photons at each pass through, and instead moved to reflective optics, which brought about its own challenges, since reflective optics tend to have much less forgiving tolerances than refractive optics. It’s not actually hard to put together an EUV instrument in principle if you have the light source and the optics capabilities (and China has both), but with these sorts of technologies the devil’s always in the details, and the time it takes to make the technology reliable is really determined by the tuning and tolerances.
It’s technically possible to do 7nm with DUV. TSMC’s first 7nm process was done with DUV, as will SMICs. I forget if it was Nikon or Canon but one of the two is proposing a DUV instrument that can do 5nm. However, while technically feasible it would probably be a more expensive and less efficient process, and probably less forgiving on tolerances since it would involve a lot of multipatterning rounds, so it might not be market competitive.
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Great explanation...
No one is disputing that ideally, China should be able to produce high tech goods. We all agree on this goal.
The only question is not only how to get there, but how to surpass the West and maintain that advantage over the long term.
The West's "fear, suspicion, and hostility" can constrain China yes, but it cannot prevent China from enacting institutional reforms, having an open scientific community that seeks collaboration with those who are willing to collaborate with it (such as Russia, Iran, Pakistan, parts of ASEAN, etc.), encouraging creative thinking in its education system, welcoming very high skilled workers from foreign countries for long term residence & promotion, protecting IP, supporting basic research through Universities, encouraging small private enterprises, etc.
Remember ASML didn't produce sh*t by itself. It partnered with TSMC, Cymer, Carl Zeiss, & 4998 other suppliers & an entire ecosystem of researchers and innovators across different companies, countries & labs for 20 years to develop EUV. That is how it was able to succeed where Nikon and Canon failed, as the latter two followed an internal-only R&D model like Intel is doing too.
And remember, it does not matter that ASML and Carl Zeiss are not American companies, as long as America controls the ecosystem they depend on. Similarly, it does not matter if China depends on an EUV system built by (hypothetically) Singapore, as long as China is able to control what the Singapore company does via its influence. What matters is not the national border per se, but the ecosystem of control. This is determined by things like how many suppliers you have in common, how dense your social & economic & cultural & political & military ties, etc.
HI WTAN, MY Man , it is becoming a reality, just as you predicted.
from cnTechPost
Huawei reportedly launches 'Tashan Project' to build 45 nm chip production line this year
2020-08-12 16:50:39 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
0
Huawei has launched the "Tashan Project" to make its foray into semiconductor manufacturing and is ready to build a chip production line without US technology, according to latest information posted on Weibo.
As a result of the US sanctions, TSMC cannot OEM Huawei chips, forcing the company to start the internal "Tashan Project", Weibo blogger @鹏鹏君驾到 said in a post.
Huawei has begun to work with related companies, ready to build a y 45nm chip production line completely without US technology, which is expected to be completed within the year, the blogger said.
At the same time, Huawei is also exploring cooperation with other companies to build a 28-nm chip production line of its own technology, the blogger said.
At an event last week, Huawei Consumer Business CEO Richard Yu said Huawei will be rooted in all aspects in the semiconductor field to break through basic research and precision manufacturing in physics and materials science.
In terminal devices, Huawei is investing heavily in materials and core technologies to achieve a close linkage between new materials and new processes, breaking through bottlenecks that constrain innovation.
from cnTechPost
Huawei reportedly launches 'Tashan Project' to build 45 nm chip production line this year
2020-08-12 16:50:39 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
0
Huawei has launched the "Tashan Project" to make its foray into semiconductor manufacturing and is ready to build a chip production line without US technology, according to latest information posted on Weibo.
As a result of the US sanctions, TSMC cannot OEM Huawei chips, forcing the company to start the internal "Tashan Project", Weibo blogger @鹏鹏君驾到 said in a post.
Huawei has begun to work with related companies, ready to build a y 45nm chip production line completely without US technology, which is expected to be completed within the year, the blogger said.
At the same time, Huawei is also exploring cooperation with other companies to build a 28-nm chip production line of its own technology, the blogger said.
At an event last week, Huawei Consumer Business CEO Richard Yu said Huawei will be rooted in all aspects in the semiconductor field to break through basic research and precision manufacturing in physics and materials science.
In terminal devices, Huawei is investing heavily in materials and core technologies to achieve a close linkage between new materials and new processes, breaking through bottlenecks that constrain innovation.