News on China's scientific and technological development.

daifo

Major
Registered Member
There is nothing a Chinese tech company can do if the US is bent on banning Chinese tech in the USA. However, Chinese tech companies can offer google/apple alternative in other countries by having a more open OS. IE, Huwai Mobile Service will allow vendors/users to select a mapping service that is code to the require specs of HMS. So in theory, "Uber" would call HMS for mapping service and it can delegate to any mapping service that also implement those require calls. The user can for example choose bing maps or baidu maps or nokia etc. Since countries like India and US is using national security concern to ban Chinese social apps, i can see other countries/regional block will start making home-grown versions of fb/uber/google etc. Trump is playing with fire by weaponizing consumer US tech companies.

Chinese companies are happy to provide manufacturing for 3rd party companies too. Brazil wants a consumer phone company, Chinese company will happy to be OEM. Want it built in brazil? China can help set that up as well.


Many people will not buy a phone if they cannot use Google Maps or Gmail or Facebook. So, OpenSource OS is not the problem. Its the services that American companies provide.
 

BMEWS

Junior Member
Registered Member
Do you think they will not bar Xiaomi or Oneplus? Ofcourse they will. Its just a matter of time. They are not considered big enough just yet to be threatening. All Chinese phone companies will be put into the entity list if Trump is in power.

The main issue for Chinese phone companies is not having access to the high-end phones. It is having access to Google, Facebook, Instagram, Uber pretty much all the services that people use in a smartphone. If Chinese companies are put into the entity list that means Facebook will not make an app for Chinese eco-system. It means Uber cannot make an App. Google services like Gmail/Maps are also not available.

So, not even low-end phones will be viable without those apps. So, Chinese software companies like Alibaba, Meituan and so on will have to step up and beat American service companies first. They need to replace Google Maps, Gmail, Uber with Chinese equivalents. Only then an appstore without those American companies will be viable and popular.

So, as you can see it is an extremely difficult task. For Chinese phones to be viable, they will need to replace entire American Internet service stack top to bottom. Without having that eco-system in place chinese phones are extremely vulnerable to US bans. Right now Chinese companies only make the hardware but use the American eco-system outside China.


So, that is why my original point is that they probably cannot become a viable choice as a phone brand for another 30-40 years.They remain at the mercy of American made internet eco-system.

30 to 40 years? I have to disagree. This can be done in 3 to 4 years. Software is order of magnitude easier than EUV... now if you are talking about the first mover advantage in terms of network effects, (same reason why Google Wave, Google Buzz, Google Plus, Google Orkut, etc weren't able to take on facebook or instagram etc) then that would be a different matter... but software itself is incredibly easy.

Making a Gmaps, Google search, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter etc competitor is not the hard part, the hard part is capturing enough mindshare of the world.

If US really severs all relationship with China, then the US patents have no hold over China at that point. Same goes for copyrights, trademarks, etc Chinese government already have Windows 10 source code, they can make their own version of Windows literally overnight (Microsoft gave them the source code to the Chinese Government Edition of Windows 10). Software can be pirated, reverse engineered, this is not rocket science.

You can't just download the AutoCAD to a jet engine and start making the jet engine even if you found the F-35 blueprints on a contractor's laptop like the US falsely claimed CHina to have stolen F-35 blueprints etc... But software is digitally by definition, if you get the source code to some application like MATLAB or Cadence for example, you just compile it, you bascially are instantly up to speed that very moment. Therefore software is the easiest part, the harder part is getting the people of the world on your platform.
 
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Orthan

Senior Member
Do you think they will not bar Xiaomi or Oneplus? Ofcourse they will. Its just a matter of time. They are not considered big enough just yet to be threatening. All Chinese phone companies will be put into the entity list if Trump is in power.

AFAIK, huawei (and possibly ZTE. Is it under embargo too?) was only barred from american tech because it produces communications infrastruture, which is a vital asset in any country. Thats why it has become a special target for the US government for a long time now. I remember in 2012 that the US government was already talking about how huawei and ZTE could pose a threat to US security.

However, firms like xiaomi, that only produce phones, should be safe from that.
 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
30 to 40 years? I have to disagree. This can be done in 3 to 4 years. Software is order of magnitude easier than EUV... now if you are talking about the first mover advantage in terms of network effects, (same reason why Google Wave, Google Buzz, Google Plus, Google Orkut, etc weren't able to take on facebook or instagram etc) then that would be a different matter... but software itself is incredibly easy.

Making a Gmaps, Google search, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter etc competitor is not the hard part, the hard part is capturing enough mindshare of the world.

If US really severs all relationship with China, then the US patents have no hold over China at that point. Same goes for copyrights, trademarks, etc Chinese government already have Windows 10 source code, they can make their own version of Windows literally overnight (Microsoft gave them the source code to the Chinese Government Edition of Windows 10). Software can be pirated, reverse engineered, this is not rocket science.

You can't just download the AutoCAD to a jet engine and start making the jet engine even if you found the F-35 blueprints on a contractor's laptop like the US falsely claimed CHina to have stolen F-35 blueprints etc... But software is digitally by definition, if you get the source code to some application like MATLAB or Cadence for example, you just compile it, you bascially are instantly up to speed that very moment. Therefore software is the easiest part, the harder part is getting the people of the world on your platform.

If replicating what Google does was easy, you would already have American competitors who will take market share away from Google. They can't because Google has the right set of engineers and existing base that enables them to always be better than their competitors. And another factor is mental inertia of the consumers. Once you are accustomed to Google or Facebook, why would you Choose Bing or Baidu? You will not unless Baidu or Bing is much better than Google and people find it more beneficial to use them.

Software is much harder than Hardware to actually replace. Yes, you can copy the source code but you cannot copy everything, there will some parts that will be much more optimized. Then there is the eco-system. All the software that people have developed for Windows for 30 years simply cannot be ported to another OS without billions of dollars of investment. What about companies that use that software and people who have been trained to use that software? Can you replace them?

Linux simply has not been able to replace windows despite the efforts of many companies for decades. There is just not enough incentive to convince people to do so. Compare that with hardware, you can easily replace intel chips with AMD or Via or Kungpeng. ARM has replaced x86 chips in desktop by developing some emulators.

Hardware is super easy. In fact China already has it figured out. The reason they don't have chip foundries or EUV machines is not because it is incredibly difficult. Its because you need a large capital investment and China did not have the need to make that investment before. The Chinese and in fact the world never thought someday they will be banned by US from buying chips or EUV machines. Before Trump no one thought something like this will be even tried.

So Chinese only focused on getting market share with least amount of effort. So, they made phones with existing solutions. They bought Google OS, ARM chips and Taiwanese foundries. That's what you do when you live in a globalized world.


Why does China does not have most advanced engines? because they did not even have the know-how to even make an air frame. They did not need to invest money in a jet engine. Once the need arises, capital is invested, people are hired and things start to happen.

China can poach engineers with higher pay. They can steal designs. Its just a matter of not having the need to do so before.

This is much easier than actually convincing the entire world that Google, Facebook who already super efficient in terms of service, are not good enough and you need to use my service. Chinese companies need to make their internet services several times better than what Google and Facebook can provide and only then they will start to get that market share.

But if you only focus on the domestic market, then yes China already has its own eco-system and extremely innovative internet companies. But those companies need to get out and win market share around the world before the public will buy a phone that does not have any american software or service. And if that Chinese phones takes a shortcut and uses American service like Facebook or Google, then it is vulnerable to a ban by US govt.

So, no, 3-4 years is not enough for Chinese branded phones to be viable outside China without US eco-system. Not even 30-40 years may not be enough. Its an extremely hard challenge. Hardware is easy by comparison. They just did not invest on it before. Once they do, its just a matter of a few years to get it done.
 

KYli

Brigadier
So, no, 3-4 years is not enough for Chinese branded phones to be viable outside China without US eco-system. Not even 30-40 years may not be enough. Its an extremely hard challenge. Hardware is easy by comparison. They just did not invest on it before. Once they do, its just a matter of a few years to get it done.


I strongly disagree with your assessment that it would take decades to compete with current internet and software and high tech titans. Nokia is one of the dominated player in the phones industry before it became irrelevant in less than 5 years. Yahoo is once the most powerful search engine in the 90s but google took over in just a few years. Netscape was the browser king in the 90 but it didn't take long for internet explorer to become dominated then came the Chrome and firefox. Microsoft ICQ is whatsapp before whatsapp. Yahoo mail and aol mail were replaced by gmail. Myspace is replaced by FB. FB has been fallen and beaten by IS and tiktok. Google ecosystem is much more fragile than you think.
 

BMEWS

Junior Member
Registered Member
If replicating what Google does was easy, you would already have American competitors who will take market share away from Google. They can't because Google has the right set of engineers and existing base that enables them to always be better than their competitors. And another factor is mental inertia of the consumers. Once you are accustomed to Google or Facebook, why would you Choose Bing or Baidu? You will not unless Baidu or Bing is much better than Google and people find it more beneficial to use them.

Software is much harder than Hardware to actually replace. Yes, you can copy the source code but you cannot copy everything, there will some parts that will be much more optimized. Then there is the eco-system. All the software that people have developed for Windows for 30 years simply cannot be ported to another OS without billions of dollars of investment. What about companies that use that software and people who have been trained to use that software? Can you replace them?

Linux simply has not been able to replace windows despite the efforts of many companies for decades. There is just not enough incentive to convince people to do so. Compare that with hardware, you can easily replace intel chips with AMD or Via or Kungpeng. ARM has replaced x86 chips in desktop by developing some emulators.

Hardware is super easy. In fact China already has it figured out. The reason they don't have chip foundries or EUV machines is not because it is incredibly difficult. Its because you need a large capital investment and China did not have the need to make that investment before. The Chinese and in fact the world never thought someday they will be banned by US from buying chips or EUV machines. Before Trump no one thought something like this will be even tried.

So Chinese only focused on getting market share with least amount of effort. So, they made phones with existing solutions. They bought Google OS, ARM chips and Taiwanese foundries. That's what you do when you live in a globalized world.


Why does China does not have most advanced engines? because they did not even have the know-how to even make an air frame. They did not need to invest money in a jet engine. Once the need arises, capital is invested, people are hired and things start to happen.

China can poach engineers with higher pay. They can steal designs. Its just a matter of not having the need to do so before.

This is much easier than actually convincing the entire world that Google, Facebook who already super efficient in terms of service, are not good enough and you need to use my service. Chinese companies need to make their internet services several times better than what Google and Facebook can provide and only then they will start to get that market share.

But if you only focus on the domestic market, then yes China already has its own eco-system and extremely innovative internet companies. But those companies need to get out and win market share around the world before the public will buy a phone that does not have any american software or service. And if that Chinese phones takes a shortcut and uses American service like Facebook or Google, then it is vulnerable to a ban by US govt.

So, no, 3-4 years is not enough for Chinese branded phones to be viable outside China without US eco-system. Not even 30-40 years may not be enough. Its an extremely hard challenge. Hardware is easy by comparison. They just did not invest on it before. Once they do, its just a matter of a few years to get it done.


The further out predictions go, the more unreliable they become. Especially when it comes to fast moving fields of technology.
40 years ago cell phone looked like this:
(if you travel back to 1980 and tell folks 40 years from now it will come down to Huawei, TSMC, Google Play, and the battle of US China hegemony, people would have thought you lost your marbles)
1596936832193.png

It was only 13 years ago that the modern smartphone as we know it to be was invented:
(back then it was blackberry vs apple, Huawei was on nobodies radar)


You want to go predict 40 years from now go ahead, but its practically meaningless and of no real value...

I highly doubt the whole world is still gonna be using the Google Play store 4 decades from now...
I'd bet good money facebook won't even exists by then... don't forget all that came and went before it, including xanga, livejournal, friendster, myspace, and that's not even within the span of two decades, much less 40 years...
 
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localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
The further out predictions go, the more unreliable they become. Especially when it comes to fast moving fields of technology.
40 years ago cell phone looked like this:
(if you travel back to 1980 and tell folks 40 years from now it will come down to Huawei, TSMC, Google Play, and the battle of US China hegemony, people would have thought you lost your marbles)
View attachment 62417

It was only 13 years ago that the modern smartphone as we know it to be was invented:
(back then it was blackberry vs apple, Huawei was on nobodies radar)


You want to go predict 40 years from now go ahead, but its practically meaningless and of no real value...

I highly doubt the whole world is still gonna be using the Google Play store 4 decades from now...
I'd bet good money facebook won't even exists by then...


Yeh 40 years, Apple, Google, Microsoft, Nvidia, Facebook, Amazon might all be defunct.

I don't even take seriously people who try to predict the next month lol.
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
If replicating what Google does was easy, you would already have American competitors who will take market share away from Google. They can't because Google has the right set of engineers and existing base that enables them to always be better than their competitors. And another factor is mental inertia of the consumers. Once you are accustomed to Google or Facebook, why would you Choose Bing or Baidu? You will not unless Baidu or Bing is much better than Google and people find it more beneficial to use them.

Software is much harder than Hardware to actually replace. Yes, you can copy the source code but you cannot copy everything, there will some parts that will be much more optimized. Then there is the eco-system. All the software that people have developed for Windows for 30 years simply cannot be ported to another OS without billions of dollars of investment. What about companies that use that software and people who have been trained to use that software? Can you replace them?

Linux simply has not been able to replace windows despite the efforts of many companies for decades. There is just not enough incentive to convince people to do so. Compare that with hardware, you can easily replace intel chips with AMD or Via or Kungpeng. ARM has replaced x86 chips in desktop by developing some emulators.

Hardware is super easy. In fact China already has it figured out. The reason they don't have chip foundries or EUV machines is not because it is incredibly difficult. Its because you need a large capital investment and China did not have the need to make that investment before. The Chinese and in fact the world never thought someday they will be banned by US from buying chips or EUV machines. Before Trump no one thought something like this will be even tried.

So Chinese only focused on getting market share with least amount of effort. So, they made phones with existing solutions. They bought Google OS, ARM chips and Taiwanese foundries. That's what you do when you live in a globalized world.


Why does China does not have most advanced engines? because they did not even have the know-how to even make an air frame. They did not need to invest money in a jet engine. Once the need arises, capital is invested, people are hired and things start to happen.

China can poach engineers with higher pay. They can steal designs. Its just a matter of not having the need to do so before.

This is much easier than actually convincing the entire world that Google, Facebook who already super efficient in terms of service, are not good enough and you need to use my service. Chinese companies need to make their internet services several times better than what Google and Facebook can provide and only then they will start to get that market share.

But if you only focus on the domestic market, then yes China already has its own eco-system and extremely innovative internet companies. But those companies need to get out and win market share around the world before the public will buy a phone that does not have any american software or service. And if that Chinese phones takes a shortcut and uses American service like Facebook or Google, then it is vulnerable to a ban by US govt.

So, no, 3-4 years is not enough for Chinese branded phones to be viable outside China without US eco-system. Not even 30-40 years may not be enough. Its an extremely hard challenge. Hardware is easy by comparison. They just did not invest on it before. Once they do, its just a matter of a few years to get it done.
I have to disagree on that, high end hardware chip is much harder and need alot investment/time/nich talent compare to say youtube/facebook. the reason phone need those apps, is because everybody use it, but those app(youtube, facebook, gmail etc) are not hard to development. The harder software apps are typically like EDA tools, CAD and other design/verification tools. but even those are not hard compare to high end chips. There is only handful of high end HW chip designer/manufacture, but many more software company doing EDA/CAD tools, even more doing things like social media/Maps/video apps etc. typically when we look at how hard that industry is, just look at how many company is in that industry. You can count number of HW chips designer/manufacture in 1 hand, but you can't do that with social media apps. you can count number of industry making jet engine vs auto engine/autos.
as for search engine, i use bing/google/and others in term of result its about the same, people just tend to use the one they already use to it. its same reason huawei own "play store" can't compete with android play store, it only has 60k apps, where android has 100s millions. its basically popularity contest, and it take many years for ALOT ppl to switch from one apps to another. its not technical issue its popularity issue
tiktok is much more popular in US and rest of world compare to Facebook/other apps for short video etc, and its because there are so much content in it, people got use to it, spend alot time on it. in this case typically the first comer get a big head start , and if their tools is user friendly, got lot cool content, its unlikely they will switch to a new apps due to shortage of contents/unfamiliarity.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
The Idiom of keep your friend close and your enemy closer rings a bell in Washington DC, CORPORATE AMERICA is China's best friend, and the CCP should not follow The US in using sanction indiscriminately.

from cnTechPost

Qualcomm wants permission to sell chips for Huawei 5G phones
2020-08-09 8:27:34 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
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Qualcomm wants permission to sell chips for Huawei 5G phones-cnTechPost

Qualcomm has been putting pressure on the Trump administration to allow it to sell components to Huawei, saying current restrictions risk channeling revenue to foreign competitors rather than preventing Huawei from obtaining the parts, the
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reports.

Qualcomm is lobbying to be permitted to sell chips to Huawei that would be used in 5G phones, the newspaper reported, citing a presentation it says has been “circulating around Washington” and without specifying how it obtained the document.

US chipmakers are required to obtain a license from the Commerce Department to ship certain components to Huawei.
Qualcomm said that, due to the restrictions, its foreign competitors now have access to a market worth as much as $8 billion each year. It cites MediaTek and South Korea’s Samsung Electronics as those benefiting from the redirected revenue stream.



“If Qualcomm is subject to export licensing, but its foreign competitors are not, US government policy will cause a rapid shift in 5G chipset market share in China and beyond,” it said.
That would hamper American research and leadership on 5G issues, it said, calling that “an unacceptable outcome for US interests.”
 

BMEWS

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yeh 40 years, Apple, Google, Microsoft, Nvidia, Facebook, Amazon might all be defunct.

I don't even take seriously people who try to predict the next month lol.


In 40 years China went from dirt poor third world country to surpass the world's sole superpower when it comes to high tech like 5G...
So I find it hard to believe it would take another 40 years for a China of today to catch up with the West in terms of software ecosystem...
 
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