News on China's scientific and technological development.

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Even if the EUV machine is not the best in resolution, I suppose they can use the EUV with Multi Pattening to get to 5nm.
I thought resolution was a function of optics, not power output. From your previous post, it seems that the optics problems have been resolved (no pun). Besides, you've just pointed out in another post that DUV multi-patterning can reach 5nm, why would they use EUV multi-patterning for that?
 

Chish

Junior Member
Registered Member
Unlike the 1970s and 80s, a lot of students that go overseas are actually not top tier students. Many, not all, go overseas to escape the gaocao exams.

The real brain drain happens at the PHD and Postdoc levels. Need to keep those people.
Many Chinese students came to Australia with intention of staying, some for new lifestyle, job opportunity,some to park their parents' secret monies, or as an escape door if get into trouble in China ( Australia never sent back serious criminals due to China death penalty, human rights etc). Education is not necessary the top priority. I have hosted a few Chinese students, majority are not serious in their studies. However, the present anti-China Australian government, economic recession and coronavirus situations have altered their plans. One university student is not coming back, continue to finish degree on line. Private companies are employing more South Asian, mostly Indian than Chinese. Most Chinese have to start their own business depending mostly on Chinese customers. Hardly find Chinese employed in high or senior positions due to lack of trust or other reasons. This situation will remain until China - Australia government to government, people to people relationships can get back to normal. So Chinese brain drain is not going to be a problem in Australia and many other countries at the present moment. Trump is actually cleansing Chinese students and professionals in all high tech institutions.
 

WTAN

Junior Member
Registered Member
I thought resolution was a function of optics, not power output. From your previous post, it seems that the optics problems have been resolved (no pun). Besides, you've just pointed out in another post that DUV multi-patterning can reach 5nm, why would they use EUV multi-patterning for that?

The Changchun Institute has developed a set of Projection Lens/Optics but how this compares to the Carl Zeiss Optics in the Asml EUV machine is unknown. Hopefully the Changchun/Smee EUV has a conparable resolution to the latest EUV from Asml. If not........you can always use Multi Patterning to get there. Asml will be releasing its next generation EUV in 2022 with improved Optics, i think 0.55.

I suppose the choice of DUV or EUV is up to the client based on the cost of the machine and operational cost. The DUV Multi Patterning for 5nm would be more expensive due to more Masks being required but the EUV machine will be more expensive to acquire. But i suspect that the DUV for 5nm might come out before the EUV.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
The Changchun Institute has developed a set of Projection Lens/Optics but how this compares to the Carl Zeiss Optics in the Asml EUV machine is unknown. Hopefully the Changchun/Smee EUV has a conparable resolution to the latest EUV from Asml. If not........you can always use Multi Patterning to get there. Asml will be releasing its next generation EUV in 2022 with improved Optics, i think 0.55.

I suppose the choice of DUV or EUV is up to the client based on the cost of the machine and operational cost. The DUV Multi Patterning for 5nm would be more expensive due to more Masks being required but the EUV machine will be more expensive to acquire. But i suspect that the DUV for 5nm might come out before the EUV.
Hi "WTAN,

Is there any IP violation if SMEE EUV use LPP ?
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
hi Tam

Great summary as always, 2 thumps up. Here are the proof of what you had said.

from cnTechPost


RISC-V processor designed by five Chinese university students successfully fabricated
2020-07-25 22:20:25 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
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RISC-V processor designed by five Chinese university students successfully fabricated-cnTechPost

Five undergraduates from the University of Chinese Academy of Sciences led the design of a 64-bit RISC-V processor that became their graduation project, according to
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The 64-bit RISC-V processor SoC, called "NutShell," was designed last year and is based on the 110nm process of Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corporation (SMIC), the biggest chipmaker on the Chinese mainland.

The SoC has been successfully taped out and is capable of running Linux as well as UCAS-Core, an operating system they made themselves.
RISC-V processor designed by five Chinese university students successfully fabricated-cnTechPost

All five graduates will be attending graduate school at the Institute of Computing Technology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, "to participate in a more challenging project to develop a design for a high-performance chaotic multi-emission RISC-V processor core.”


RISC-V processor designed by five Chinese university students successfully fabricated-cnTechPost

"Processor chips are recognized as the crown jewel of the chip industry, with high design complexity and difficulty. There is a serious shortage of processor chip design talent in China, and it is an urgent challenge to accelerate the scale and speed of training of such talent," said Sun Ninghui, dean of the School of Computer Science and Technology at the University of Chinese Academy of Sciences and director of the Institute of Computing Technology at the Chinese Academy of Sciences.

In response to the processor design talent crisis, the University of Chinese Academy of Sciences launched the "One Life One Chip" program in August 2019, with the goal of training undergraduates to design processor chips and complete tape out with with solid theoretical and practical experience.

Chinese MSS needs to protect these precious students from foreign agents trying to kill them by "accidents" or "suicide".
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
My concern, 2 year chip stock may not last that long due to heavy demand. Hope both Huawei and SMIC are able to work things out especially the 7nm chips by year end or early 2021.

from cnTechPost

Huawei smartphone market share in China grows to record high despite overall market decline
2020-07-26 9:41:27 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
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One out of every two phones being sold in China right now is a Huawei.
In the second quarter of this year, Huawei's phone market share in China reached 46%, the highest ever, according to a report by market research firm Counterpoint.

That's more than Vivo (16 percent), OPPO (15 percent), and Xiaomi (9 percent) combined.

Huawei smartphone market share in China grows to record high despite overall market decline-cnTechPost

In the 5G smartphone market, Huawei's market share is even higher, at more than 60 percent.
Despite the overall market slowdown, Huawei still achieved 14% year-on-year growth, Counterpoint said.


China has emerged as Huawei's most important market after it lost the ability to use GMS in overseas markets in its latest smartphones, Counterpoint said.
Huawei's 5G portfolio is growing rapidly, thanks to the high-end Mate 30 and P40 series and the mid-range Nova 7 series.

China's 5G smartphone market is already very consolidated, with Huawei, OPPO, Vivo, and Xiaomi capturing 96% of the market.
Huawei leads in 5G smartphone sales, followed by Vivo, OPPO, and Xiaomi.


In the second quarter, 33 percent of smartphones sold in China were 5G-enabled, up from 16 percent in the first quarter.

That percentage was even higher in June when more than 40 percent of the smartphones sold were 5G-enabled.
Apple was the fastest-growing smartphone brand in China in the second quarter, as the popularity of the iPhone 11 series continued to grow and the number of smartphones sold increased.

Apple's sales in China were up 32% year-over-year in the quarter due to the continued popularity of the iPhone 11 series and price cuts.
Huawei smartphone market share in China grows to record high despite overall market decline-cnTechPost


The iPhone SE 2020 also quickly moved into the top three best-selling iPhones of the second quarter of 2020.
All other phone brands except Apple and Huawei saw declines during the quarter.


Counterpoint said that despite the Covide-19 epidemic receding, consumer confidence remains low and both handset makers and carriers are pushing 5G smartphones by lowering the price of 5G devices and 5G package prices.

This has increased the share of 5G handset sales, with a third of total smartphone sales in China this quarter being 5G devices, the highest in the world. But that still didn't offset the decline in the overall market, Counterpoint said.

What happened to Xiaomi and Oppo recently?
 

Skywatcher

Captain
I thought resolution was a function of optics, not power output. From your previous post, it seems that the optics problems have been resolved (no pun). Besides, you've just pointed out in another post that DUV multi-patterning can reach 5nm, why would they use EUV multi-patterning for that?
Photomask performance and workstation (sp) overlay capability is also a consideration in EUV lithography.

As for the DPP vs LPP debate, I think that the latter, for now, can operate more rapidly than the former.
 

Chish

Junior Member
Registered Member
Chinese MSS needs to protect these precious students from foreign agents trying to kill them by "accidents" or "suicide".
No, no. The West will do what they had always done. They will offer generous scholarships to super smart students to study in top institutions and gateways to dream jobs in the West. Thought this is also the normal practise in all countries, the West had deeper pockets and more attractions/prestige in the past.
 

WTAN

Junior Member
Registered Member
Hi "WTAN,

Is there any IP violation if SMEE EUV use LPP ?

I think that China would have respected the patents of Asml and Cymer(US made LPP), but since the Huawei sanctions and the ban on sales of EUV to China (Waseenar Agreement), China would certainly have changed its mind about the patents. China would now be focused on developing the Lithography machines at all costs in order to ensure its companies get supplies of Semiconductors.

China can also claim that as EUV machines are under Waseenar Agreement embargo, the patents do not apply. In fact Changchun and SMEE should apply for their own EUV patents in China in order to get protection under Chinese IP Law.

In any case, Japanese company Gigaphoton has been developing LPP Light Sources for a while and US based Cymer has not objected so far.
 
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