News on China's scientific and technological development.

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
I also think the downfall of Japanese supremacy in consumer tech is due to their style of management and structure of Japanese company. Following the western lead they surrender the company leadership to professional manager Very few of the Japanese company where the founder family are still in management. Toyoda family still control Toyota but not sure about the rest

This couple with consensus style management make it very difficult to make fast and quick decision specially in consumer market where taste and technology is changing fast
And if you add the cross owner ship of Japanese company where the bank own the company and the company own part of the bank share . It become unwieldy and risk averse management style.

It was not too long ago where Japanese management were applauded in the west . All kind of author wrote all kind of Japanese management books

Contrast that to typical Chinese company mainland of overseas where the founder or his family still run the show Decision making is quick and they are fast in adapting to changing customer taste or technology.

But the downside is what happened if you have a stupid and fool heir Western press always harping on this one
But of course modern Chinese wealthy family nowadays are sending their children to Ivy league universities. Eg Thaksin Sinawatra or his sister Yingluk. They are Thai Chinese family Both of them went to management school in US
The management style and family ownership are not unique to Japan. Samsung is a good example of the "Japanese ownership" style, a family controlled success just like Toyota. Samsung is also a hybrid of banks and industrialist setup similar to Japanese companies. We can also see the up and down of HTC from Taiwan, or Wang An computer from US.

Yes the Japanese management method was highly worshipped in the west and China 10 years ago. My company being a good example. However I would not give much weight of a certain management style to the success. The fever of learning a style is more like a fashion "he is rich, his method must be good".

So far, the successful Chinese mainland companies are either State owned or collectively owned (Huawei, Xiaomi etc.), I do not have a name of family owned company, maybe Geely is one.

What I am trying to say is that regarding Japanese companies rise and fall I don't put much weight in their specific style of management and organization, not in their rise nor in their downfall. Much as what you have said, a wise son can make a decisive choice of the right path to make the business successful or ruin it as much as a group of short-sighted directors of the board in a public company. In the end, at a critical junction of the history, a "dictator" and "group of free people" can make the same mistake or right choice, only insight/foresight and intelligence can make the difference.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
The management style and family ownership are not unique to Japan. Samsung is a good example of the "Japanese ownership" style, a family controlled success just like Toyota. Samsung is also a hybrid of banks and industrialist setup similar to Japanese companies. We can also see the up and down of HTC from Taiwan, or Wang An computer from US.

Yes the Japanese management method was highly worshipped in the west and China 10 years ago. My company being a good example. However I would not give much weight of a certain management style to the success. The fever of learning a style is more like a fashion "he is rich, his method must be good".

So far, the successful Chinese mainland companies are either State owned or collectively owned (Huawei, Xiaomi etc.), I do not have a name of family owned company, maybe Geely is one.

What I am trying to say is that regarding Japanese companies rise and fall I don't put much weight in their specific style of management and organization, not in their rise nor in their downfall. Much as what you have said, a wise son can make a decisive choice of the right path to make the business successful or ruin it as much as a group of short-sighted directors of the board in a public company. In the end, at a critical junction of the history, a "dictator" and "group of free people" can make the same mistake or right choice, only insight/foresight and intelligence can make the difference.

Which planet did you live ? Xiaomi is privately owned company So do Ali baba initially before they go public, Tencent All of them are still run by the founder of the company.
Xiaomi Inc. (stylized as Mi)
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(
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),
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:
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;
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: Xiǎomǐ Kējì, literally "
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technology";
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English:
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or
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) is a privately owned
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and software company headquartered in
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. It is the world's 5th largest smartphone maker in 2017.
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Xiaomi designs, develops, and sells
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, and related
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That is why they are so adaptable. NO the state company does not run Chinese economy anymore
It is the private sector that is most productive in generating job even though they are hamstrung by the SOE

Just a few decades ago China’s private sector was almost non-existent. How important is it today?

1. In 2014 China economy specialist Nicholas Lardy concluded that the private sector now produces at least two-thirds of China’s GDP.
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2. Competitive conditions prevail in some industry sectors where state-owned enterprises (SOEs) remain prominent such as steel and coal production. State monopolies only survive in a few sectors such as oil and utilities. Here regulated prices mean that profit margins can be thin.
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3. In 2015 there were 54.08 million self-employed businesses in China, a 44 percent increase from 2011. Over the same period the number of privately-owned firms nearly doubled to reach 19.08 million.
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,
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4. In China 25 percent of the working age population own and manage a private business.
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This compares with:

- 22.9 percent in Australia
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- 15.9 percent in South Korea
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- 34.7 percent in Brazil
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- 20.9 percent in Turkey
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
nope. There isn't anything like 'Chinese management school'.

Did you ever travel in south east Asia on business? I guess the answer is not All over SEA Chinese control the private economy of south east asia It varies from almost total control in Thailand all thw way to Phillipine, Malaysia and Indonesia

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Thai Chinese are a well established middle class ethnic group and are well represented in all levels of Thai society.
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Thai Chinese also play a leading role in Thailand's business sector and
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the Thai economy today.
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In addition, Thai Chinese have a strong presence in Thailand's political scene with most of Thailand's former Prime Ministers and the majority of parliament having at least some Chinese ancestry.
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Like much of Southeast Asia, Thai Chinese entrepreneurs
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Thai commerce at every level of society.
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Entrepreneurial savvy Chinese have literally taken over Thailand's entire economy.
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Ethnic Chinese wield tremendous economic clout over their indigenous Thai majority counterparts and play a critical role in maintaining the country's economic vitality and prosperity.
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In Thailand, the economic power of the Chinese is far greater than that of their proportion in the population in addition to the Chinese being socioeconomically successful for hundreds of years than the indigenous host Thai population.
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With their powerful economic prominence, the Chinese virtually make up the country's entire wealthy elite.
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Like much of Southeast Asia, ethnic Chinese
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Filipino commerce at every level of society.
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Chinese Filipinos wield a tremendous economic clout unerringly disproportionate to their small population size over their indigenous Filipino majority counterparts and play a critical role in maintaining the country's economic vitality and prosperity.
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With their powerful economic prominence, the Chinese virtually make up the country's entire wealthy elite.
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Chinese
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Which planet did you live ? Xiaomi is privately owned company So do Ali baba initially before they go public, Tencent All of them are still run by the founder of the company.
Xiaomi Inc. (stylized as Mi)
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(Chinese Mandarin:
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(
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),
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:
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;
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: Xiǎomǐ Kējì, literally "
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technology";
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English:
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or
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) is a privately owned
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Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and software company headquartered in
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. It is the world's 5th largest smartphone maker in 2017.
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Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Xiaomi designs, develops, and sells
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,
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,
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, and related
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.
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That is why they are so adaptable. NO the state company does not run Chinese economy anymore
It is the private sector that is most productive in generating job even though they are hamstrung by the SOE

Just a few decades ago China’s private sector was almost non-existent. How important is it today?

1. In 2014 China economy specialist Nicholas Lardy concluded that the private sector now produces at least two-thirds of China’s GDP.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


2. Competitive conditions prevail in some industry sectors where state-owned enterprises (SOEs) remain prominent such as steel and coal production. State monopolies only survive in a few sectors such as oil and utilities. Here regulated prices mean that profit margins can be thin.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


3. In 2015 there were 54.08 million self-employed businesses in China, a 44 percent increase from 2011. Over the same period the number of privately-owned firms nearly doubled to reach 19.08 million.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


4. In China 25 percent of the working age population own and manage a private business.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
This compares with:

- 22.9 percent in Australia
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- 15.9 percent in South Korea
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- 34.7 percent in Brazil
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- 20.9 percent in Turkey
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wow, where does the fire come from?:eek: I live on planet earth.;) BTW, it is very rude to put that question to a person who has lived in China for more than 30 years and visit China every year and maintains a friend and relative network ranging from farmers, factory workers, state bureaucrats, university professors, businessmen and army officers.o_O

Yes, Xiaomi is privately owned, BUT NOT in the family owned style as you may have suggested to be advantageous. Xiaomi is akin to Alphabet (Google). So Xiaomi's head Lei Jun can not pass his position as the leader to his son or daughter. That is different from Toyota or Samsung. I can go on with other private companies that you can come up with.

If it is not the State Owned Enterprises, then who made the High speed railways, C919, the leading nuclear power plants? Except Geely (with Volvo in its fold) who else are major players in the Chinese car market? Audi, VW are by FAW (the very first SOE). MOST things that you can be proud of as Chinese made are by SOEs except smart phones. Even Huawei is not private, it is collective, it is another form of public owned, by its own employees, not a shareholding capitalist company. Huawei is the no.1 in China, mind you. If we go to the home electronics, TV, refrigerator, microwave etc. Can you name a private company in China? I can tell you some SOEs (including provincial ones), Haier, TCL (former PLA owned). They are the top players, they were state owned, now with majority shares hold by the national asset bureau.

You are right about Alibaba or Geely (Li shufu), so far they are almost fully owned by one person or family, but they are hardly representative to the landscape of Chinese enterprises.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
wow, where does the fire come from?:eek: I live on planet earth.;) BTW, it is very rude to put that question to a person who has lived in China for more than 30 years and visit China every year and maintains a friend and relative network ranging from farmers, factory workers, state bureaucrats, university professors, businessmen and army officers.o_O

Yes, Xiaomi is privately owned, BUT NOT in the family owned style as you may have suggested to be advantageous. Xiaomi is akin to Alphabet (Google). So Xiaomi's head Lei Jun can not pass his position as the leader to his son or daughter. That is different from Toyota or Samsung. I can go on with other private companies that you can come up with.

If it is not the State Owned Enterprises, then who made the High speed railways, C919, the leading nuclear power plants? Except Geely (with Volvo in its fold) who else are major players in the Chinese car market? Audi, VW are by FAW (the very first SOE). MOST things that you can be proud of as Chinese made are by SOEs except smart phones. Even Huawei is not private, it is collective, it is another form of public owned, by its own employees, not a shareholding capitalist company. Huawei is the no.1 in China, mind you. If we go to the home electronics, TV, refrigerator, microwave etc. Can you name a private company in China? I can tell you some SOEs (including provincial ones), Haier, TCL (former PLA owned). They are the top players, they were state owned, now with majority shares hold by the national asset bureau.

You are right about Alibaba or Geely (Li shufu), so far they are almost fully owned by one person or family, but they are hardly representative to the landscape of Chinese enterprises.

It is very easy to rebut your argument if SOE is so successful why is the north east China is rust belt and in deep trouble Yes you guess it right because their economy is so dominated by SOE

Now why southern China is so successful all the southern Chinese province are now on average has reached $20000 per capita Zhejiang, Guangdong., Fujian, Jiangsu etc
Because their economy are dominated by private sector and overseas Chinese funded company.

The SOE is a drag on Chinese economy Even all the company that you mention is run on subsidy But they are necessary evil to keep the social stability.
Haier, TCL are private company they were state owned at one time but they were all prvivatized

The story of China of the story of unleashing private initiative and drive that has been there all long The communist suppress this natural instinct of Chinese people with disastrous result

When DXP start reform he try to found inspiration from the overseas Chinese and the advice he get is don't be afraid of your own people and don't micro manage their life. leave them alone! We now see the spectacular result of this wise advice!
 

dragoooons

New Member
Registered Member
It is very easy to rebut your argument if SOE is so successful why is the north east China is rust belt and in deep trouble Yes you guess it right because their economy is so dominated by SOE

Now why southern China is so successful all the southern Chinese province are now on average has reached $20000 per capita Zhejiang, Guangdong., Fujian, Jiangsu etc
Because their economy are dominated by private sector and overseas Chinese funded company.

The SOE is a drag on Chinese economy Even all the company that you mention is run on subsidy But they are necessary evil to keep the social stability.
Haier, TCL are private company they were state owned at one time but they were all prvivatized

The story of China of the story of unleashing private initiative and drive that has been there all long The communist suppress this natural instinct of Chinese people with disastrous result

When DXP start reform he try to found inspiration from the overseas Chinese and the advice he get is don't be afraid of your own people and don't micro manage their life. leave them alone! We now see the spectacular result of this wise advice!

Your perspective of looking at economics is warped by capitalist ideology. I assume you believe that the goal of the Chinese state is to increase the standards of living of the Chinese people at large rather than a few Chinese business owners. If you then assume that private enterprise is the best way to achieve this goal, I'm afraid empirical data from other countries does not support your thesis.

First let us observe that so called trickle down economics does not bring wealth and prosperity to the majority of people in a country. After 40 years of increased privatization of public services and increased consolidation of all industries in UK and USA inequality has increased, life expectancy has decreased, drug addiction has gone up and mass murder has become a social phenomenon. After a mere 10 years of economic privatization in the Russian Federation after the fall of the USSR, Russia suffered 10 million excess deaths if you extrapolate from the 10 year drop in average life expectancy suffered by the Russian people. The above results are from letting some people get rich first or get rich more and then hoping that the wealth will spread to the rest of society. This is exactly the economic plan of China today and we see that it has not worked for western nations in recent years.

To say that communist suppressed the natural instinct of Chinese people is also wrong. Unless you believe forcing fellow Chinese workers to labor for 12-16 hour shifts in a factory to the point that some choose suicide is "natural Chinese instinct" or maybe firing computer engineers once they hit 30 so you can hire less demanding fresh graduates is also "natural Chinese instinct". Does confiscating the land of farmers so that real estate developers can come in and build apartments part of the Chinese psyche? It certainly boosts GDP and as a by product you now have unemployed farmers who have to go work in slave factories as well! Of course I am not saying Chinese people are cynical profit seekers. This sociopathic behavior arises because the economic system give the greatest rewards to people most willing to exploit their fellow man. It is fundamentally unscientific to say there are innate qualities to entire nations of people independent of the social and economic system these people live in.

Finally just because China experienced rapid economic growth following Reform and Opening Up does not mean that there is a causal relationship between the two. Let me remind you that the another extremely fast growing economy of the 20th century was the USSR during the time of Stalin. That was under a centrally planned economy that SUBSIDIZED unprofitable heavy industry such as steel making with the profits of light industry and agriculture (gee I wonder why north-eastern heavy industry is unprofitable compared to southern light industry?). Technically profit is the wrong term to use here since economic planners under Stalin did not judge industries based on money profit. Only after Stalin did money profit become a factor in central planning of the USSR, and look where that lead them to. Also we cannot ignore the growth of China prior to Reform and Opening Up. An increase of literacy from 50% to 90% and disciplining the labor force might not show up in GDP growth figures but it is critical in the subsequent economic growth of China.

I also want to discuss your allusion to the fact that micromanaging of people stunts economic growth. It is true that the state is playing a far lesser role in managing the economy today than it did in earlier times. But the degree of "micromanaging" has probably stayed the same. Prior to Reform and Opening Up, an employee goes to work, and takes orders from a low level manager. This manager is part of a chain of command that goes up to the state economic planning organ. Today an employee goes to work and takes orders from a low level manager. This manager is part of a chain of command that goes up to the highest executives in the company. China has given freedom to corporate executives to manage their workforce as they see fit, while the ordinary worker still just takes orders from a boss. At a fundamental level there is still plenty of managing going on within private enterprises, and I hear China today has some of the most insufferable middle and low level managers in the world.

Why should we believe that a bunch of corporate executives trying to out profit each other by seeing who can screw over the workers and destroy the environment more will benefit society at large? At the same time, we should not believe that a Communist Party full of bureaucrats trying to enrich themselves will run a centrally planned economy to the benefit of ordinary workers. And we should definitely not believe that elected politicians who use donkeys and elephants as symbols, who rely on donations from the largest corporations to fund their elections, will run the economy to benefit ordinary folks.

The only way to guarantee that the Chinese economy works for the benefit of Chinese people in the long run, and thus ensuring the stability and longevity of the Chinese state, is to give ordinary Chinese working class people direct and equal power to control how their workplaces are run and how the profits of their physical or intellectual labor are used.

Also market economies are garbage and have outlived their usefulness. China can probably make a fairly optimal central plan for their economy in less than 10ms on Tianhe-2.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
@dragoons
I believe you bring unrelated subject to the discussion as well you either misunderstood my post or you twisted my post
I will address your rebuttal one by one
I never say that China should rely only on Capitalism What happened in US and UK is the extreme version of capitalism due to blind adherence to ideology. My kind of capitalism is close to European aka German style capitalism where the state play active role in the economy and regulate the economy

There is place for state actor to get involve in the economy. Defense related industry, Transportation industry, Post office are good example. Any industry that involve the well being of large people should be left to state enterprises

The primary role of the government is to provide the frame work for private economy to blossom Thing like law for regulating fair competition, safety and health of large segment of society. What happened in Anglo brand of capitalism is that this frame work is slowly gutted due to ideology and greed of the large company to increase their domain of activity.

It is devil cycle where the large company provide fund for the election or reelection of ideologue with the goal of removing the regulating side of economy. In turn the politician is at the beck and call of large company. Good example is health care industry in US. Or the trickle down economy that you describe where the rich try to shift the tax burden to the middle class and impoverish the middle class. It does not improve real economy because it will invest in another financial instrument or squirrel away the extra money or spend on luxury

I believe in the strong role of government as equalizer of the economic pie and provide balance for the large corporation with their regulation and tax power to lessen the income inequality and blunted the rough edges of capitalist economy

Capitalism must be tempered with strong regulation and or moral persuasion otherwise it will be jungle out there
That is exactly what happened in China recently with all the food scandal due to lack of regulation and supervision and on top of that you have moral vacuum due to scorched earth policy of CCP in gutting out the bad aspect of Chinese culture together with the "good' Chinese value and moral compass

It result in unbridled materialism that we now witness in China eq the commercialism of marriage institution by replacing it with auction It now become so expensive that poor Chinese cannot afford the dowry that the bride family demand

We on the other hand was always been told to be fair to other people never take advantage of other people misery. Don't judge people by their wealth and many other "good Chinese value" Always be thrifty and spend as little as possible. Hard work will eventually be rewarded and never give up.

It is surprising if you consider that most Chinese immigrant come from peasant stock with minimal culture interaction but yet they have what they call a kernel of culture value that stood them well in the new country be it in business or as government employee. that is why they are so successful in business because people get value from the transaction

Mass murderer has nothing to do with capitalism more to do with lax law and absent of gun control in US Why there is no mass murder in country with strict gun control like Canada, Germany, etc?

Russian privation is not real privatization is more like crony capitalism where the state divvy up the national wealth to a bunch of crony close to elite in power . No wonder it is fail

Before reform the state control the live of individual in very pervasive way . The state control where you live because apartment is allocated based on the work place. You cannot buy apartment. You cannot travel or immigrate. You cannot open private business . You cannot change job, Or for that matter choose your profession and trade. the state decide everything for you. whether you work had or not you got the same pay

In that kind of environment why should one work harder or have initiative for that matter ?
No wonder the economy in in the dump and the average percapita of Chinese in late 70 is $200.

Capitalism temper with strong regulation and dose of cultural value and social regulation is the salvation of China . That is what Xi dream of . He is strong adherence of China traditional value and strongly promote it
 
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