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tphuang

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Don’t forget biomass is another good source of carbon. Here are some Biomass/biowaste to chemicals projects, including a straw to olefin pilot project.
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China alone produces nearly 1 billion tons of straw per year as a byproduct of agro production, which used to be a major source of air pollution because farmers had no use of them but to burn them.
Here is a straw to SAF air fuel project
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a lot of the straws and waste are used for biosynthesis in green methanol products.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Oil and energy are two distinctly different things.

Oil has more uses than just energy.

And as I've pointed out, a reduction in oil imports (and therefore oil stocks) means that in a crisis, there is less oil available to be diverted to energy uses.

That does not improve energy security.
For the same amount of oil imports less dependence on oil for chemicals production means more oil available for energy. Even if China reduced oil imports just to what it needs for energy consumption that still doesn’t mean it’s more vulnerable to loss of energy because it’s not reducing the energy consumption portion of its imports. And btw pretty much all of the energy consumption shares of China’s oil imports are used to generate transportation fuels, not electricity, and you can probably figure out the direction that consumption demand is going in the future (that portion is also easily substitutable by natural gas).
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Why on earth would a reduction in oil imports mean a reduction in oil stocks?

Because when a plastics petrochemical complex imports oil, it has to maintain a stock of oil for contingencies.
And at a country level, the IEA standard is 90 days of imports.

So when oil imports (for processing into plastics) are reduced, there is a decrease in oil stocks allocated for petrochemical complexes.

---

The consumption and stockpile of oil for energy use is completely separate, and should be unaffected.

So the net effect is an overall decrease in oil stocks (for plastics use + energy use)
But in a crisis, demand for plastics will likely decrease, and their oil stockpile allocation can be diverted to energy use.

Can you see how this would result in:
1. A net decrease in energy security
2. But a net increase in oil security

You do realize China is one of the biggest oil producers in the world? It's just not enough to cover the even bigger demand, hence imports. To the extent that demand drops—thanks to substitutes like coal—imports can drop as well. Hence energy security.

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Your point is pure pedantry, and I'm frankly at a loss why you keep doubling down on it. What a dumb hill to die on.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
For the same amount of oil imports less dependence on oil for chemicals production means more oil available for energy.

That isn't what will happen.

If China was a net exporter of oil, then yes, reduced oil demand for plastics would mean more domestic oil available. But if China is an exporter, it would already have oil energy security. There would be no difference in energy security.

But China is actually a huge importer of oil. If imported oil is no longer needed for plastics production, then that oil simply won't be imported, and there is no increase in oil supply.
 

Wrought

Captain
Registered Member
Because when a plastics petrochemical complex imports oil, it has to maintain a stock of oil for contingencies.
And at a country level, the IEA standard is 90 days of imports.

So when oil imports (for processing into plastics) are reduced, there is a decrease in oil stocks allocated for petrochemical complexes.

---

The consumption and stockpile of oil for energy use is completely separate, and should be unaffected.

So the net effect is an overall decrease in oil stocks (for plastics use + energy use)
But in a crisis, demand for plastics will likely decrease, and their oil stockpile allocation can be diverted to energy use.

Can you see how this would result in:
1. A net decrease in energy security
2. But a net increase in oil security

You are viewing petrochemicals purely in isolation, and either ignorantly or deliberately ignoring the vulnerability of imported oil regardless of application. Less oil demanded, and especially less imported oil, means domestic oil fills a greater share of total demand. A country relying on imports for 10% instead of 20% of its needs is a country with more energy security. Because it's about relative, not absolute, quantites.

And stockpiles are by definition only ever a temporary measure. Not even mentioning how incredibly stupid it is to build an industry which will be crippled in wartime because its stockpiles were diverted, instead of an industry which doesn't need those stockpiles in the first place. You can also just, yknow, increase stockpiles without tying them to petrochemical plants in the first place (which is of course
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). Your whole argument rests on a pedantic framework of pretending the petrochemicals exist in isolation, which they obviously don't.

That isn't what will happen.

If China was a net exporter of oil, then yes, reduced oil demand for plastics would mean more domestic oil available. But if China is an exporter, it would already have oil energy security. There would be no difference in energy security.

But China is actually a huge importer of oil. If imported oil is no longer needed for plastics production, then that oil simply won't be imported, and there is no increase in oil supply.

Oil not being imported and no increase in oil supply (while needs are still being met) = more energy security.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
You are viewing petrochemicals purely in isolation, and either ignorantly or deliberately ignoring the vulnerability of imported oil regardless of application. Less oil demanded, and especially less imported oil, means domestic oil fills a greater share of total demand.

Yes, domestic oil fills a greater share of total oil demand. But again, total oil demand is not the same as total oil demand for energy security purposes.

What you're referring to is better described as economic security, not energy security.
 
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