News on China's scientific and technological development.

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Good to know SMEE has other products with great success. But we were talking about a specific market, that is the DUVL and EUVL for front end process for 28nm or better.
If you have a good market in 90 nm lithography it's only a matter of time before you get a good market in 28 nm lithography. There's no companies with a 28 nm lithography program that doesn't also have a 90 nm lithography program, which proves this natural progression.

The key difference is immersion lithography and the UPW management system. That is admittedly a large step beyond dry lithography since managing liquids in lithography isn't easy. But it is not nearly as big as getting a dry lithography system working in the first place.
 

tonyget

Senior Member
Registered Member
If you have a good market in 90 nm lithography it's only a matter of time before you get a good market in 28 nm lithography. There's no companies with a 28 nm lithography program that doesn't also have a 90 nm lithography program, which proves this natural progression.

The key difference is immersion lithography and the UPW management system. That is admittedly a large step beyond dry lithography since managing liquids in lithography isn't easy. But it is not nearly as big as getting a dry lithography system working in the first place.

I don't think any fabs in China bought SMEE's 90 nm machine,that machine is more or less an technical demonstrator,never enter batch production.

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火狐截图_2022-01-21T18-04-57.325Z.png
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I don't think any fabs in China bought SMEE's 90 nm machine,that machine is more or less an technical demonstrator,never enter batch production.

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View attachment 81624
It's a claim on WeChat. Any screenshots of official communications from SMEE?

Does any mature company put a tech demo on their product sales page? At my company we have many tech demonstrators and never claim they're for sale.

If it were just a tech demo why would they put it there knowing that it would ruin their reputation if they were asked about it and were forced to say it was a demonstrator?

I mean I've never seen Chinese companies behave this way. This is like Tesla or Jai Hind stuff.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I don't think any fabs in China bought SMEE's 90 nm machine,that machine is more or less an technical demonstrator,never enter batch production.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

View attachment 81624
And in the screenshot you provided, the words tech demonstrator was never used. They said they had supply chain issues and could not meet the required lead time.

It is common for semiconductor equipment with costs as low as 20k USD to have nothing in stock and be built to order. Example: process mass spectrometers. Shit, even a vacuum gauge can take up to 5 weeks for a 1k USD part.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
View attachment 81340

This picture and the one previous shows both lamillar and laminar armor, with lamillar around the chest and laminar around the arms.

The Mings were as heavily armored as they come.
Just how did they lose to the Jurchens/Manchus if the Ming forces were better armed and equipped? I haven't read enough about the rise and fall of the Ming Dynasty to know and understand their demise.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Just how did they lose to the Jurchens/Manchus if the Ming forces were better armed and equipped? I haven't read enough about the rise and fall of the Ming Dynasty to know and understand their demise.
Morale really matters in pre industrial warfare, far more than now. My understanding is that the Ming army was demoralized after fighting peasant uprisings for 10+ years, pay not keeping up with inflation since Wanli printed money and debased silver to pay for expedition to Korea, loss of trade with Spanish, Dutch and Portuguese galleons due to rise of North America and Britain, etc.
 

wxw456

New Member
Registered Member
Just how did they lose to the Jurchens/Manchus if the Ming forces were better armed and equipped? I haven't read enough about the rise and fall of the Ming Dynasty to know and understand their demise.

Morale really matters in pre industrial warfare, far more than now. My understanding is that the Ming army was demoralized after fighting peasant uprisings for 10+ years, pay not keeping up with inflation since Wanli printed money and debased silver to pay for expedition to Korea, loss of trade with Spanish, Dutch and Portuguese galleons due to rise of North America and Britain, etc.

From what i have heard a large chunk of the Ming defected to the Qing. And those who opposed the new regime were divided between different groups.
This is super off-topic...

During 1601-1619 Nurhaci was uniting the Jurchen tribes in the North. He had already declared himself Khan and created the Jin state by 1619. By 1621 he had also managed to capture the Ming cities of Fushun, Shenyang and Liaoyang via Ming defectors and traitors. In 1625 Shenyang was declared the new capital and the entire Liaodong peninsula was also captured. The Jurchen advance was stopped at the battle of Ningyuan in 1626. Nurhaci would later die of wounds sustained in the battle.

In 1627 The Jin launched successful incursions into Joseon Korea and a later incursion from 1636-1637. 1625-1635 was also spent building alliances and campaigning in Mongolia.

Hong Taiji succeeded as Jin ruler in 1626. Hong Taiji adopted imperial examinations and a Chinese style legal system, integrated Ming defectors, implemented Confucian style education and Ming-style government ministries. In 1636 he declared the Qing dynasty and crowned himself emperor.

In 1638 the Qing forces began lauching raids across the Great Wall and deep into Northern China. The Ming army at this time was concentrated against the peasant rebellions and unable to stop the Qing raids. From 1641-1642 the Qing army captured Liaoxi province and advanced near to Ningyuan and the Shanhai pass at the Great Wall.

Elsewhere, famine, drought and epidemics led to peasant rebellions starting in north China in 1628. Li Zicheng was born in 1606 to a peasant household in Shaanxi. In 1633 he joined a rebel army in Shaanxi province and later gained control of the army when the leader died. For many years Li Zicheng and his rebel army attacked Ming government officials in Northern China, expanded their reach and built up their support from the peasantry.

By 1642 Li Zicheng was sieging the city of Kaifeng. The city governer in desperation breached the dams in hopes of lifting the siege, but the resulting flood instead destroyed the city and killed most of the residents. After this the Ming army was unable to control Li Zicheng's rebellion due to being preoccupied in the North by the Manchus. In 1643 Li Zicheng captured Xi'an and proclaimed himself King of Shun.

In April 1644 Li Zicheng captured Beijing and the Ming emperor committed suicide. Li Zicheng would then proclaim himself Emperor of the Shun dynasty. This left the Ming general Wu Sangui posted at the Great Wall in a difficult dilemma. Wu Sangui had ordered his army to leave Ningyuan and marched across the Shanhai pass to reinforce Beijing. But the city fell before he could arrive. Wu Sangui would decide to return and garrison at Shanhai pass. This had left all land north of the Great Wall defenceless to the Qing army.

Li Zicheng during this time had sent envoys to Wu Sangui asking him to defect, but Wu Sangui kept delaying his response. Eventually Li Zicheng assumed Wu Sangui's silence meant refusal and executed Wu Sangui's father. Wu Sangui would from this point decide to defect to the Qing. Wu Sangui's army would clash several times with Li Zicheng's army. Eventually the Qing army crossed the Shanhai pass, relieved Wu Sangui's army and defeated Li Zicheng's army. Li Zicheng would then decide to abandon Beijing after his defeat and retreat. Thus the Qing army conquered Beijing in June of 1644.

This is just the start of the Qing advance too. There are several decades of war and campaigning after this.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
This is super off-topic...

During 1601-1619 Nurhaci was uniting the Jurchen tribes in the North. He had already declared himself Khan and created the Jin state by 1619. By 1621 he had also managed to capture the Ming cities of Fushun, Shenyang and Liaoyang via Ming defectors and traitors. In 1625 Shenyang was declared the new capital and the entire Liaodong peninsula was also captured. The Jurchen advance was stopped at the battle of Ningyuan in 1626. Nurhaci would later die of wounds sustained in the battle.

In 1627 The Jin launched successful incursions into Joseon Korea and a later incursion from 1636-1637. 1625-1635 was also spent building alliances and campaigning in Mongolia.

Hong Taiji succeeded as Jin ruler in 1626. Hong Taiji adopted imperial examinations and a Chinese style legal system, integrated Ming defectors, implemented Confucian style education and Ming-style government ministries. In 1636 he declared the Qing dynasty and crowned himself emperor.

In 1638 the Qing forces began lauching raids across the Great Wall and deep into Northern China. The Ming army at this time was concentrated against the peasant rebellions and unable to stop the Qing raids. From 1641-1642 the Qing army captured Liaoxi province and advanced near to Ningyuan and the Shanhai pass at the Great Wall.

Elsewhere, famine, drought and epidemics led to peasant rebellions starting in north China in 1628. Li Zicheng was born in 1606 to a peasant household in Shaanxi. In 1633 he joined a rebel army in Shaanxi province and later gained control of the army when the leader died. For many years Li Zicheng and his rebel army attacked Ming government officials in Northern China, expanded their reach and built up their support from the peasantry.

By 1642 Li Zicheng was sieging the city of Kaifeng. The city governer in desperation breached the dams in hopes of lifting the siege, but the resulting flood instead destroyed the city and killed most of the residents. After this the Ming army was unable to control Li Zicheng's rebellion due to being preoccupied in the North by the Manchus. In 1643 Li Zicheng captured Xi'an and proclaimed himself King of Shun.

In April 1644 Li Zicheng captured Beijing and the Ming emperor committed suicide. Li Zicheng would then proclaim himself Emperor of the Shun dynasty. This left the Ming general Wu Sangui posted at the Great Wall in a difficult dilemma. Wu Sangui had ordered his army to leave Ningyuan and marched across the Shanhai pass to reinforce Beijing. But the city fell before he could arrive. Wu Sangui would decide to return and garrison at Shanhai pass. This had left all land north of the Great Wall defenceless to the Qing army.

Li Zicheng during this time had sent envoys to Wu Sangui asking him to defect, but Wu Sangui kept delaying his response. Eventually Li Zicheng assumed Wu Sangui's silence meant refusal and executed Wu Sangui's father. Wu Sangui would from this point decide to defect to the Qing. Wu Sangui's army would clash several times with Li Zicheng's army. Eventually the Qing army crossed the Shanhai pass, relieved Wu Sangui's army and defeated Li Zicheng's army. Li Zicheng would then decide to abandon Beijing after his defeat and retreat. Thus the Qing army conquered Beijing in June of 1644.

This is just the start of the Qing advance too. There are several decades of war and campaigning after this.
Thanks. That was most informative. End of my inquiry on this off topic subject.
 
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