News on China's scientific and technological development.

Tyler

Captain
Registered Member
Then that's kind of like saying Apple is nothing without Korean display technologies and Tesla and Apple are nothing without Chinese battery technologies?

You said here that TSMC and Samsung are nothing without Japanese chemicals for fab processes... well exactly how much are they nothing?? Is it 2 weeks worth of supply chain reshuffling or 2 years of research and development to replace those Japanese chemicals? Or 2 hours and 2 days? This is quite an important detail before we make big claims like TSMC is nothing without xyz and Samsung is nothing without abc. Apple and some Japanese makers are also nothing without TSMC. Isn't that also accurate and fair to say? If TSMC is just a place where Japanese chemicals are used with American equipment, how come TSMC has been and is the leading foundry with no peers at the moment and the closest being Samsung? For example if there is 100 parts to this process, TSMC has the magic formula for 50 of it while various non Taiwanese suppliers have the remaining. American equipment is nothing without Taiwanese foundry tech. Japanese chemicals are also nothing without Samsung's tech.

Point is aren't Japanese tech industries often also somewhat to extremely reliant on foreign supply chains and the same goes with American ones. Chinese is arguably the most independent EXCEPT for foundries and even with foundries the Chinese can do everything themselves in-house now apart from anything that requires ASML's EUVL but can Dutch ASML produce even a 128nm logic chip? Nope but Chinese foundries can... many of them down to 28nm and they've been doing 14nm now. Is it sensible to say ASML is nothing without foundries using their equipment? The question is exactly how dependent they are and how significant the obstacle to replace supplier if required. I would imagine that Korea would get along handsomely well if Japanese chemical supply was instantly stopped. It would probably take the Koreans a few weeks or months to replace those Japanese suppliers. Who knows but I'm not the one saying they're nothing without Japan.
China should be able to replace all Japanese chemicals, even more easily than Korea could. The difference is how economical for the koreans to do it by itself.
 

pmc

Major
Registered Member
What he meant is that Japan (& the US and Europe ) has depth something that South Korea Taiwan and China lack. Yes Samsung and TSMC are theeading fabs in the world but they are nothing without Western equipment and Japanese chemicals.
Replicate that in many industries and you'll see where their tech foundation comes from
The GE engines that powering COMAC Planes has Nippon Carbon inside it.
Every thing flying in this world in commercial aerospace has Japan inside it and those are not replaceable as planes will need to be recertified. It is not like Sony mobile phone replace Samsung Phone with quick turn around with more or less features.
Japan basically forced TSMC to build a Fab inside Japan.
US and Japan can play Korea/Taiwan against each other and weaken both of them.
When SKorea won UAE Nuclear reactor project it had to rely on Japan/US as subcontractors/licensing. these big countries can easily screw them to make them lose face in Arab world. that picture that i posted of Arabian prince in desert tell you all that needed to know about reliability of Japanese product as they dont tolerate unreliable vehicles when the are in desert retreats or hunting.
There is so far no evidence that Taiwan or Korea salaries relative cost of living/private debt are any better than Japan. so all that external dependencies didnot achieved its intended goal.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Well you know how the Toyota model used to be. Total vertical integration. Raw materials come in and products come out.
This was somewhat broken since the 1990s when the US mollified Japan's powerful Ministry of International Trade and Industry.
Japan has since got itself a bunch of MBAs running its enterprises. Toyota is also a great example of this. Akio Toyoda might be of the family but he has degrees in law, business, and an MBA. He's useless as a leader of a technical company.
 

PikeCowboy

Junior Member
The GE engines that powering COMAC Planes has Nippon Carbon inside it.
Every thing flying in this world in commercial aerospace has Japan inside it and those are not replaceable as planes will need to be recertified. It is not like Sony mobile phone replace Samsung Phone with quick turn around with more or less features.
Japan basically forced TSMC to build a Fab inside Japan.
US and Japan can play Korea/Taiwan against each other and weaken both of them.
When SKorea won UAE Nuclear reactor project it had to rely on Japan/US as subcontractors/licensing. these big countries can easily screw them to make them lose face in Arab world. that picture that i posted of Arabian prince in desert tell you all that needed to know about reliability of Japanese product as they dont tolerate unreliable vehicles when the are in desert retreats or hunting.
There is so far no evidence that Taiwan or Korea salaries relative cost of living/private debt are any better than Japan. so all that external dependencies didnot achieved its intended goal.

not sure what you're getting at. Are you suggesting that us or japan can make something without outside input?
 

pmc

Major
Registered Member
not sure what you're getting at. Are you suggesting that us or japan can make something without outside input?
I did not said they can do every thing by themselves but they have influence in EU/Asia/Middleast/LatinAmerica.
Korea and Taiwan not in that league.
EU and Russia hasnt turn the screws on Korea yet despite very significant help. It can be concluded that Korean and Taiwan model of development completely flopped.
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Well you know how the Toyota model used to be. Total vertical integration. Raw materials come in and products come out.
This was somewhat broken since the 1990s when the US mollified Japan's powerful Ministry of International Trade and Industry.
Japan has since got itself a bunch of MBAs running its enterprises. Toyota is also a great example of this. Akio Toyoda might be of the family but he has degrees in law, business, and an MBA. He's useless as a leader of a technical company.

The vertical integration model within the same company works best when:

1. communication/transaction costs are high
AND/OR
2. you have a tightly integrated/complex product

With the internet, collaborative apps/software and easy payment mechanisms, point 1 is no longer much of a barrier unlike the days prior to computers.

On point 2, with moderately complex products like cars with high production volumes, you can still source or develop components mainly in-house
But when you have very complex, low production volumes or very high-tech products, it is impossible to do everything in-house and to do it well
 

NiuBiDaRen

Brigadier
Registered Member
Well you know how the Toyota model used to be. Total vertical integration. Raw materials come in and products come out.
This was somewhat broken since the 1990s when the US mollified Japan's powerful Ministry of International Trade and Industry.
Japan has since got itself a bunch of MBAs running its enterprises. Toyota is also a great example of this. Akio Toyoda might be of the family but he has degrees in law, business, and an MBA. He's useless as a leader of a technical company.
Ah I was wondering why MITI stopped being so successful.

Intel's new CEO is a technical leader replacing a generation of MBA leaders which is why you hear a bevy of news these days about Intel going back into core manufacturing instead of just relying on chip design which ostensibly was good on the P/L column.
 
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