New Type98/99 MBT thread

[rhino123]

In that case you have started a pointless and fallacious argument that has spanned for pages and pages. What makes you think China is not advancing her own tank designs? Only an idiot would think the 2nd largest economy in the world has 'relaxed' its tank technology advances.

Not to mention, your argument is contradictory. Let me quote you here; "I never rant about China being left behind", and then you say "China should not relax and continue to push forward even if she had the best tanks in the region (which she does not have)." Umm... I fail to see the difference between the two. You're saying that China does not have the best tanks in the region and that's she's 'relaxing' and not 'pushing forward' which means EXACTLY THE SAME as "China being left behind". Make up your mind, please.

Funny... first off... I never say that the chinese had relax. I am merely answering to a comment by one of the forum member that one of the reason for the Chinese to develop newer better tank is to field something better.

My exact word,

Partially. China needed to field something equal or better than land powers that could invade her on land. And also to be able to sell these tanks to other nations. If the Chinese could develop and create something better or equal than those that are already been fielded or currently being developed and still sell them are a cheaper or price, there is a market out there and this market is quite substantial.

And that seemed to be stepping on landmine when all of you started attacking me by saying in one way or another that there is no land power that could match China at the moment.

So the direct respond to that was that, even if China is standing at the peak and not one can match, doesn't actually mean that China should slow down or even stop developing.

That is the whole gist of my posts. But you guys seemed very very interested to argue my wordings on her neighbours having better tanks (which, by the way, I didn't say, I said that China doesn't have the best tanks. And even if she has, she need to continually improve her tanks.)

And btw, my argument is not contradictory, I really suspect you are here only to create a diversion to win your argument. Okay, lets look into my argument,

"I never rant about China being left behind." That is true. I have never for once said that China was being left behind, so that is true. However, I did mentioned that, "China should not relax and continue to push forward even if she had the best tanks in the region (which she does not have)." So where did that actually came in contradictory? Members had pointed out that there are indeed tanks that are better or actually equal to the best tank in China arsenal... like Leopard, Type 90, K2, Type 10 (many of these are arguably better or equal to China's tanks). And if you fail to see the different, that is your problem (which is a funny problem actually).

Again... please, please, please, don't put words in my mouth and try to curve my meaning.

I never ever said that China is relaxing. It is you people that had been implying that. So please try to understand what others are trying to say, take a moment to think about what he/she meant before jumping the gun like you have.

 

[rhino123]

I am not going to dignify the rest of your diatribe with a response

But checking the map; neighbours with land borders (unless you are still thinking about swimming tanks!)

North Korea - Indigenous Tanks based off Chinese tech
Russia - Indigenous Tanks - T95 soon to have T99s
Mongolia - No Indigenous Tanks
Kazakhstan - No Indigenous Tanks
Kyrgyzstan - No Indigenous Tanks
Tajikistan - No Indigenous Tanks
Afganistan - No Indigenous Tanks
Pakistan - Imports Chinese Tanks
India - Arjun (Indigenous) T90S (Joint with Russia)
Nepal - No Indigenous Tanks
Bhutan - No Indigenous Tanks
Burma - No Indigenous Tanks
Laos - No Indigenous Tanks
Vietnam - No Indigenous Tanks

Excluding Pakistan only South Korea, Russia and India have indigenous tank design/production capabilities, so the other countries don't really come into it until/unless they start bulk purchasing of advanced foreign imports.

Obviously Russia has some adequate/good tank designs and enough ground forces to contemplate a mass armoured thrust into the North China plain but that's been the case since the 60s when the quality gap between Soviet Tanks and Chinese Tanks was far greater. So if China survived that disparity for 50 years I think they're in reasonable shape!

India has designed the Arjun, well I think the readers of the forum can decide for themselves how successful/competitive it is with other designs! They also locally manufacture the T90S which is what the six tank regiments on the Chinese border are or will be equipped with. Given the Tibetan Plateau on the Chinese side of the sino-indian border is not conducive to armoured warfare advancing from the Indian side any tank battle is likely to be fought on the Indian side i.e. the Chinese would be invading!

Which leaves North Korea and by extension South Korea as the primary country with a tank industry, sufficient ground forces and within striking distance of China.

So what you can say is nothing! your view, for what they are, is recorded for posterity, the faux exasperation is noted, just move on!

What I can say is alot. By since you cannot present a good argument or sensible debate to the points I have brought up before, I will leave you to that... but let me bring forward or remind everyone of something... you are the one who had only brought up the silliness of China neighbour (or the one that have some threats to China) as Korea only.

And looking at your so-call map... What is the deal with people with no indigenious tanks? Your meaning?

Secondly... is Russia not big threat enough for you? Is India's Arjun not big enough a threat for you? And yes, Vietnam doesn't has an indigenious tank... but she cannot purchase a good one from Russia? And what is the problem with purchasing in bulk? They could even purchase the right to manufacture those tanks.

 

[Blackstone]

lol. You really believe that the US and SK would agree to china ocuppying even parts of NK ??? for order and stability reasons? the NK people wouldnt care a thing about china.

Count on it, sport. China, US, and ROK would need to stabilize not only the northern Korean region, but also secure nuclear facilities and stockpiles. A deal between the three is inevitable.

When they have US/SK forces nearby, perhabs they wont see it differently. Perhabs they will see that they need a tank capable of going against the most recent US/SK models.



And that plays well for china. They dont need to spend huge amounts of money to get top modern tanks unlike planes and ships.

China is clearly more concerned with air, space, cyber, and naval conflicts with US and her allies than land warfare, that's why you see so much development in planes, ships, missiles, rockets, and cyber warfare capabilities.

 

[rhino123]

It seemed to me that some forum members here (you know who you are), are very interested to nitpick on small areas in others posts, like

"There are no neighbours around China that can launch a successful invasion on China land.", "China had better tank than others." etc.

Which... sorry to point out, those are totally shortsighted and frankly, many simply posts argument for the sake of argument and when pointed out would shrink back to just twisting and turning and having a war of words.

One more time, my original gists of the post (before it was derailed and twisted) was,

1) Even if China had the best tanks in the region, she should not relax in her development (and I believe she didn't relax).
2) Having a new and better tanks don't just serve domestic market, but is good for export market too.

And that was in respond to one good member that posted a question (for that question, go and do a search yourself).

Secondly,

I never said that China had been left behind.

 

[volleyballer]

It seemed to me that some forum members here (you know who you are), are very interested to nitpick on small areas in others posts, like

"There are no neighbours around China that can launch a successful invasion on China land.", "China had better tank than others." etc.

Which... sorry to point out, those are totally shortsighted and frankly, many simply posts argument for the sake of argument and when pointed out would shrink back to just twisting and turning and having a war of words.

One more time, my original gists of the post (before it was derailed and twisted) was,

1) Even if China had the best tanks in the region, she should not relax in her development (and I believe she didn't relax).
2) Having a new and better tanks don't just serve domestic market, but is good for export market too.

And that was in respond to one good member that posted a question (for that question, go and do a search yourself).

Secondly,

I never said that China had been left behind.

The current Chinese doctrine believes that massed armored movements are a thing of the past due to introduction of smart cluster munitions. If an enemy cannot mass armor and can only move in small units then they are not going to be able to mount much of a threat. So the current doctrine goes. I tend to agree. The US deployed the CBU-97 Sensor Fuzed Weapon in Iraqi Freedom with astonishing results (50% kill ratio for each bomblet). The Chinese now have their own called Terminal Sensitive Munition (末敏彈). This little documentary talks about their development within the PRC if you haven't seen it already:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[chuck731]

1) Even if China had the best tanks in the region, she should not relax in her development (and I believe she didn't relax).
2) Having a new and better tanks don't just serve domestic market, but is good for export market too.

And that was in respond to one good member that posted a question (for that question, go and do a search yourself).

Secondly,

I never said that China had been left behind.

Traditional foreign markets for Chinese tanks can't afford a state of the art tank in reasonable numbers, even at Chinese prices. Markets capable of affording state of the art tanks, which the Chinese would be willng to sell to, and which would continence buying Chinese over 7-8 other competitive alternatives, and is probably small. The export market obviously won't support the development of new tank when competitive tanks whose development has already been paid for is also in the market. Developing new state of the art tanks in the hopes of foreign sales has bankrupted several tank producer in the last 40 years. State of the art tank development s has to be subsidized and supported by national armies.

I actually think the Chinese should offer state of the art tanks to Taiwan as a threwd piece of policy that combine good will gesture with a lever to distance Taiwan from the US and Japan, but that is not anywhere close to being realizable in the current political environment.

 

[Phead128]

Unified Korea will be largely bankrupt. It will rely on financial aid from the Chinese or Americans.

Seeing as how America is dead broke, and China has $3.2 trillion dollar foreign reserve, China can loan an unprecedented amount of low-interest reconstruction aid to Unified Korea, and gain unprecedented economic influence by buying Korean treasury bonds and loan money to the Korean government.

What money does America have to nation-build North Korea? U.S. doesn't have any money to spare at this moment! It's already excessively indebted, and getting pulled into a war with N. Korea/China is the last thing they want, or it will accelerate their plunge into excessive indebtedness and nation-building again in N. Korea.

lol. You really believe that the US and SK would agree to china ocuppying even parts of NK ??? for order and stability reasons? the NK people wouldnt care a thing about china.

North Korea will request Chinese troops to help suppress a rebellion, so it doesn't matter what US/SK thinks, this is bilateral affairs between China and North Korea.

N. Korea will just say it's an CIA sponsored rebellion/coup, and request Chinese troops to suppress the rebellion, restore stability, and secure nuclear weapons from rogue insurgents.

If U.S. is stupid enough to challenge Chinese troops in Pyongyang capital region, she is more than welcome to. However, U.S. is more than willing to outsource the governance issue of N. Korea to Chinese elites, who will install a more obedient pro-Chinese leader that will obey and listen to China better. That is a win for everyone at that point.

 

[nabil_05]

anyone can give a hint on whether the zpt-98 gun is improved on new type-99A2 or not and whats the update of chinese 125 mm apfsds, is there a new round after the Type-2M?

Also, does alkhalid use a variant of zpt-98 or some other gun?

Thanks

 

[SinoSoldier]

anyone can give a hint on whether the zpt-98 gun is improved on new type-99A2 or not and whats the update of chinese 125 mm apfsds, is there a new round after the Type-2M?

Also, does alkhalid use a variant of zpt-98 or some other gun?

Thanks

The gun on the new tank is probably still the same base design, but it has probably been upgraded.

There are many Chinese APFSDS rounds and it really depends on which on you are referring to.

The gun can penetrate 1100 mm of armor using a HEAT round and has a muzzle velocity of approximately 1760 m/s. The AK on the other hand probably uses the same gun on the Type 96G with a Russian-style autoloader.

 

[chuck731]

Is there any more concrete information about the 140mm or 155mm gun that was rumored to have been tested on a prototype type 99 tank?