New Type98/99 MBT thread

[TerraN_EmpirE]

I am not going to dignify the rest of your diatribe with a response

But checking the map; neighbours with land borders (unless you are still thinking about swimming tanks!)

North Korea - Indigenous Tanks based off Russian tech
Russia - Indigenous Tanks -

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

soon to have T99s
Mongolia - T55 (~370)/T72(55)
Kazakhstan - T72 (~221)
Kyrgyzstan - T72 (~150)
Tajikistan - T72/T62(~40)
Afganistan - No Indigenous Tanks
Pakistan - Imports Chinese Tanks
India - Arjun (Indigenous) T90S (Joint with Russia)
Nepal - No Indigenous Tanks
Bhutan - No Indigenous Tanks
Burma - T72 (~139)/Type-69-2 MBT (~80)
Laos - T55 (~50)
Vietnam - T62(~70)/Type 59 (~350)/T55 (~850)

!

needed some corrections

 

[Blackstone]

Uh…no. Actually, it’s quite the contrary. Air and sea warfare would be short and land warfare would be long. Things happen faster on sea and especially on air. Anyone will tell you that. US supremacy is on air and especially on sea. China would only stand a chance on land warfare. Top-rated tanks would be very important for that. Air-sea battle doesn’t feature land warfare because PLA is out of korea right now. If they get there, expect land-air-sea battle.

You need to read Air-Sea Battle to appreciate the US plan to use air power to strike targets on Chinese mainland and degrade it to the point where it's relatively safe to bring the power projecting naval platforms in range. To degrade the forces China has will take months, and would definitely not be short or sweet. As for your notion of land battle with China, it ain't happening. China isn't Afghanistan or Iraq, and there's no Fulda Gap scenario in the offing.

East Asia and Western Pacific conflicts are air and sea based, and not land, so China needs ships, subs, and airplanes far more than new tanks. It's not close.

Again, why would SK negotiate with china? China must have cards to play that game. Without troops in NK, china doesn’t have cards to play.

You're kidding, right?

 

[jobjed]

First off, I never rant about China being left behind, don't put words in my mouth.

Second, I have also never said that China had neighbours are steaming ahead with tank development, I said that China should not relax and continue to push forward even if she had the best tanks in the region (which she does not have).

In that case you have started a pointless and fallacious argument that has spanned for pages and pages. What makes you think China is not advancing her own tank designs? Only an idiot would think the 2nd largest economy in the world has 'relaxed' its tank technology advances.

Not to mention, your argument is contradictory. Let me quote you here; "I never rant about China being left behind", and then you say "China should not relax and continue to push forward even if she had the best tanks in the region (which she does not have)." Umm... I fail to see the difference between the two. You're saying that China does not have the best tanks in the region and that's she's 'relaxing' and not 'pushing forward' which means EXACTLY THE SAME as "China being left behind". Make up your mind, please.

 

[kroko]

To degrade the forces China has will take months, and would definitely not be short or sweet. As for your notion of land battle with China, it ain't happening. China isn't Afghanistan or Iraq, and there's no Fulda Gap scenario in the offing.

Air and sea warfare would be shorter than land warfare, thats for sure. And just because china is not iraq nor afghanistan doesnt deny the fact that the US has the most powerful military in the world by far. Im not talking about war, nor i thing there will be one. But there is a possibility of china having to guard against US/SK forces, be it in its borders, or the DMZ itself.

If/when that happens, land forces will be the priority for PLA.

You're kidding, right?

uh...no. Im not kidding. What makes you believe that china will have any influence in the korean peninsula once the NK regime is gone? The NK people will desire union with SK. They wont care about china. Unless china has forces on the ground.

 

[Blackstone]

Air and sea warfare would be shorter than land warfare, thats for sure. And just because china is not iraq nor afghanistan doesnt deny the fact that the US has the most powerful military in the world by far. Im not talking about war, nor i thing there will be one. But there is a possibility of china having to guard against US/SK forces, be it in its borders, or the DMZ itself.

If/when that happens, land forces will be the priority for PLA.

That's way off the mark. First, China became the largest trading nation in the world in 2012, and about 90% of her trade are seaborne. That's why China is busy developing a blue water navy. Second, East Asia and Western Pacific is an air and sea battle zone, and large land formations aren't nearly as important as airplanes, ships, and subs.

uh...no. Im not kidding. What makes you believe that china will have any influence in the korean peninsula once the NK regime is gone? The NK people will desire union with SK. They wont care about china. Unless china has forces on the ground.

Kroko, are you just throwing crap on walls to solicit comments from others? If not, then read your sentence above to yourself and see how silly it sounds. Think about 1) a united Korea would still have a land border with China, and 2) China is Korea's largest trading partner.

Now, do you still believe China will have little influence with ROK once DPRK is gone and the peninsula united?

 

[kroko]

Second, East Asia and Western Pacific is an air and sea battle zone, and large land formations aren't nearly as important as airplanes, ships, and subs.

Not nearly as important? wars can be waged in the air and sea but can only be won in the land. Whats the point of waging air and sea warfare if cant maintain your ground? You will lose. As simply as that. Besides, land warfare is where china has any chance of holding off US/SK forces.

Kroko, are you just throwing crap on walls to solicit comments from others? If not, then read your sentence above to yourself and see how silly it sounds. Think about 1) a united Korea would still have a land border with China, and 2) China is Korea's largest trading partner.

Now, do you still believe China will have little influence with ROK once DPRK is gone and the peninsula united?

Without having troops on NK, what would china do to force SK to negociate the reunification with china? threaten United korea with military action? remember that SK has a treaty aliance with the US. Thats a no-go. Threaten United korea with economic retaliation? IMO that would go against WTO rules. Besides, in that scenario expect the US, japan and others to impose economic retaliation on china too. Thats a no-go.

No. China needs to give equal if not bigger priority to its land forces. That includes developing a top-modern tank.

 

[Blackstone]

Not nearly as important? wars can be waged in the air and sea but can only be won in the land. Whats the point of waging air and sea warfare if cant maintain your ground? You will lose. As simply as that. Besides, land warfare is where china has any chance of holding off US/SK forces.

The US is downsizing the Army in favor of the Navy, Air Force, and Marines. That's clear indication the US has no intention of fighting a land war with China. Any conflict in East Asia and Western Pacific would be won or lost at sea and i the air. Even if the US sank the entire Chinese Navy and down every single Chinese warplane, the Pentagon will not land sizable land forces on Chinese shores. China will reform and reduce the Army in favor of more investments in PLAN and PLAAF, because that's where most of the fighting will take place.

Without having troops on NK, what would china do to force SK to negociate the reunification with china? threaten United korea with military action? remember that SK has a treaty aliance with the US. Thats a no-go. Threaten United korea with economic retaliation? IMO that would go against WTO rules. Besides, in that scenario expect the US, japan and others to impose economic retaliation on china too. Thats a no-go.

In case of a DPRK collapse, there will be agreements between ROK/US and China for the PLA to occupy certain parts of northern Korea for order and stability reasons. ROK will want China's help to ease North Korea into its loving arms, and China will get concessions from ROK, and the #1 item would be US troops off the Korean peninsula.

No. China needs to give equal if not bigger priority to its land forces. That includes developing a top-modern tank.

China sees it differently, and plans to reform and downsize the Army in favor of focusing resources on the Navy, Air Force, and Strategic Arms.

 

[kwaigonegin]

damn! I came here to read about the latest development on Chinese MBT but instead I'm reading about the invasion of China, 2nd Korean war, Air-Sea doctrine and what not. ..... the good news about tanks though is relatively speaking they are much much more affordable than ships and combat aircrafts!
All you need is get the design and engineering right and you can produce them at a relatively high number w/o totally breaking the bank unlike say a fighter program or a naval vessel.

 

[kroko]

The US is downsizing the Army in favor of the Navy, Air Force, and Marines. That's clear indication the US has no intention of fighting a land war with China. Any conflict in East Asia and Western Pacific would be won or lost at sea and i the air. Even if the US sank the entire Chinese Navy and down every single Chinese warplane, the Pentagon will not land sizable land forces on Chinese shores. China will reform and reduce the Army in favor of more investments in PLAN and PLAAF, because that's where most of the fighting will take place.

Im not talking about US invading china. But nations must guard their borders. Just because the US is downsizing the army doesnt mean that they wont build it up in the future. Again, the reason that land warfare isnt part of the air-sea battle is because of the NK "buffer zone". Once that is gone, expect land-air-sea battle.

In case of a DPRK collapse, there will be agreements between ROK/US and China for the PLA to occupy certain parts of northern Korea for order and stability reasons. ROK will want China's help to ease North Korea into its loving arms, and China will get concessions from ROK, and the #1 item would be US troops off the Korean peninsula.

lol. You really believe that the US and SK would agree to china ocuppying even parts of NK ??? for order and stability reasons? the NK people wouldnt care a thing about china.

China sees it differently, and plans to reform and downsize the Army in favor of focusing resources on the Navy, Air Force, and Strategic Arms.

When they have US/SK forces nearby, perhabs they wont see it differently. Perhabs they will see that they need a tank capable of going against the most recent US/SK models.

the good news about tanks though is relatively speaking they are much much more affordable than ships and combat aircrafts!
All you need is get the design and engineering right and you can produce them at a relatively high number w/o totally breaking the bank unlike say a fighter program or a naval vessel.

And that plays well for china. They dont need to spend huge amounts of money to get top modern tanks unlike planes and ships.

 

[chuck731]

damn! I came here to read about the latest development on Chinese MBT but instead I'm reading about the invasion of China, 2nd Korean war, Air-Sea doctrine and what not. ..... the good news about tanks though is relatively speaking they are much much more affordable than ships and combat aircrafts!
All you need is get the design and engineering right and you can produce them at a relatively high number w/o totally breaking the bank unlike say a fighter program or a naval vessel.

This is almost as boring as reading the incessant small talk about how one anti-tank missile, not even a very new or advanced one at that, is doing in, of all places, Syria.